When you write not hard enough it's difficult to know what you mean. How hard are you looking for?

Also, although I can understand your concern about this oily crema, it would help to have a description of what these cups taste like and what sort of beans you are using.

Above all - and I don't recall you mentioning this in any detail - how long is it taking you to pull these shots?

Connecting the grind with length of shot rather than how tough it feels may help. I have a feeling that you may be turning it into more of a wrestling match that it need be and are overextracting as a result.

Lastly, have you been using the same grinder all the time?

Even more lastly, you fine-tuned your improvement by grinding finer and tamping harder. Have you tried grinding even coarser/tamping lighter than that first shot?

Cheers

Mike

I'll try to explain better...

When I refer to hard I mean significant force something like working against a weight and requires to hold either the PF handle or the top knob to be able to pull.

When I say it not hard enough it means that I don't need to hold anything and that it feels like cutting through cream cheese.

I hope my analogies do make sense....

The problem I have is that the pull is not consistent all the way. It can start hard starting the drip only from midway and sometimes it is starting hard but at about midway become softer.

I was overfilling the basket, tamping hard and at least I was expecting the machine to pull hard if not to choke. But strangely it was not hard enough.

The pull takes about 10-15 seconds only which I think isn't long enough.
The taste of the cups is usually a little bitter than expected and in my last tests I used the same grinder (KyM 9203).

I admit I did not try grinding coarser and tamping lighter than the first shot. I was always trying to make the pull harder either by grinder finer (until I start seeing oily rings) or by tamping harder.

I am going to run a few more tests to try and check all the questions again.
I will also try a coarser grind and tamping lighter than the first shot as suggested to see the difference.

I think my last shots where not so bad and that I just need to find the exact balance between grind, tamping and dosing.

I also need to understand what to expect from a good pull:
How hard should it be?
When should it start feeling hard? Top or midway?
Should it be feeling consistent all the way?

I'll send more information soon...

Cutting through cheese is more of what you want. Having to hold portafilter is OK. Having to hold top and feel like a weightlifter on an exercise machine means that you've ground too fine or tamped too hard or both. Ease up and take it slower. Think sensual not forceful !

Good luck!

Cheers

Mike

So Sbenyo how are things going? It would be interesting to know. Did you give it up? Are you still experimenting? Or did you buy fresh coffee?

All of your problems can be solved by learning to roast at a basic level in a popcorn popper. Many small time roasters will tell you the beans they are selling you were just roasted yesterday, it was always roasted yesterday...in fact it's sometimes astonishing how they can have such a variety always roasted yesterday Anyway, at best they are probably between yesterday and 2 weeks old. And many times not for espresso.

Learning to roast might sound hard, and indeed people on these forums can make it sound like the most impossible task ever. But if you have decent hearing and a bit of common sense you can roast a bean better than anything you've had yet. Try a Central American bean without blending, or maybe a 50/50 blend with a Brasil and see how it goes. Here's a link that might help: http://coffeegeek.com/guides/popperroasting

I would also give your single basket a shot if you haven't already. I've found that the single basket when combined with fresh coffee (i.e. personally roasted and even frozen properly up to 4-6 weeks old if the bag is completely sealed) gives me results that are very easy to obtain. I've been able to teach friends to pull very drinkable shots their first time with the single basket.

Hi Esbenyo!

My first post on Home-Barsta... Hi you all!

I'm not a veteran in this field but I can't help thinking about you using another Europiccola. Your technique seems to be quite up to par, still you experience this variations in pressure on your handle while pulling a shot. I use an antiquated version of the machine (1965-ish) and I did a lot of maintenance over the years, including polishing the cylinder. It had some scratches and irregularities which translated in irregular resistance on the handle. Thus, leaking of water to the top of the piston. It created some nasty shots, I can assure you! If you know someone with a similar machine, I'd be curious to know how you'd perform on that one. Have you ever tried?

Good luck!

Rick

A change of seals and a good cleaning should take care of any problems, or highlight any major problems such as leaks that can't be solved by seal replacement. It seems as though he's able to build enough pressure for shots from the machine's point of view, but that the coffee bed isn't providing enough resistance. Although I could be wrong in that assessment.

Still a good cleaning to get rid of all old stale coffee oils sometimes can make a difference. But in this case I still believe that without 3-10 day old coffee roasted for espresso major progress can't be made. This is most often the case with symptoms such as this, but if sbenyo can assure us of a roast date and type of coffee used it would help put to rest those suspicions.

The Pavoni can be whipped into shape, hope it works out for the OP.

Hi All,

It's been a long time since I last posted and I must admit that since then, despite all my efforts, I could not get decent shots.
I almost gave up after so many tries and changes until I was lucky to get an old (pre-millenium) La Pavoni Pro.
With the Pro I used exactly the same sequence I used with my Europiccola.
I was afraid again that it will not be good enough, but to my big surprise my very first shot was way better than any of the shots I had before!
It was actually something I can call a decent shot without too much crema but a thick and stable one like it should be in real espresso. The shot also tasted good and not too bitter.
My following shots where more or less the same. I still use the original crap plastic tamper because I don't have a 49mm one yet but even this way I can get decent shots.

I still need time to improve but I immediately noticed the difference in pressure.
The Pro had much more pressure when pulling to clean an empty portafilter and when I pulled the shot.
I finally understood how the pressure should be. The pressure starts immediately from the beginning of the pull and lasts more or less the same till the end and requires a decent amount of power to pull.

I hope this machine even though it an old model can produce even better shots as everyone says.
I also understand now that I have to take my Europiccola to service. Now I know exactly what to ask for.

I'll keep on practicing (At least now I'm able to drink my test shots ) until I get better shots and I will post some photos soon from my new experiences. Thank a lot for all the tips so far. It was really helpful!

Regarding the La Pavoni Pro old model (per-millenium) does anyone know if this model can produce the same quality shots as the newer models? What are the differences between the models and what do they affect?

Great news!

I actually prefer the older machines. I'm not so keen on the lever action in the nylon liner on the new ones, which is supposed to stop things overheating but doesn't make a massive difference. The new ones, which have a 51mm basket, don''t infuse all the way to edges of the shower screen either and the single basket has a really stupid compromise shape to allow it to be used with....wait for it.... ground coffee pods! <Rant mode on> I mean what were they thinking of? Who on earth is going to want to buy a lever machine if they want the taste-free convenience of pods? <Rant mode off>

Sounds like your Ep needs new piston seals and maybe a new psiton if it has one of the nylon ones...

Cheers

Mike

I own an older model Europiccola as my second machine and just got one of my best shots in years by doing something different.

Since the portafilter is so small, compared to my other machine, I have always tried to compensate by filling the basket as close to the brim as possible, as long as it would fasten on to the machine. Today, I happened to grind less than that amount, so I only filled the basket around 3/4 full, but it was ground fine enough so that some decent pressure was needed to do the pull. Well, it was probably my best shot ever on this machine.

Maybe I was just lucky today. But, I'm going to try a 3/4 full basket again, to test it. I think you'd need to adjust the grind a little finer than if you had a fuller filter basket. But, that extra air space at the top seems to have done something to really improve the shot.