When you write not hard enough it's difficult to know what you mean. How hard are you looking for?

Also, although I can understand your concern about this oily crema, it would help to have a description of what these cups taste like and what sort of beans you are using.

Above all - and I don't recall you mentioning this in any detail - how long is it taking you to pull these shots?

Connecting the grind with length of shot rather than how tough it feels may help. I have a feeling that you may be turning it into more of a wrestling match that it need be and are overextracting as a result.

Lastly, have you been using the same grinder all the time?

Even more lastly, you fine-tuned your improvement by grinding finer and tamping harder. Have you tried grinding even coarser/tamping lighter than that first shot?

Cheers

Mike

I'll try to explain better...

When I refer to hard I mean significant force something like working against a weight and requires to hold either the PF handle or the top knob to be able to pull.

When I say it not hard enough it means that I don't need to hold anything and that it feels like cutting through cream cheese.

I hope my analogies do make sense....

The problem I have is that the pull is not consistent all the way. It can start hard starting the drip only from midway and sometimes it is starting hard but at about midway become softer.

I was overfilling the basket, tamping hard and at least I was expecting the machine to pull hard if not to choke. But strangely it was not hard enough.

The pull takes about 10-15 seconds only which I think isn't long enough.
The taste of the cups is usually a little bitter than expected and in my last tests I used the same grinder (KyM 9203).

I admit I did not try grinding coarser and tamping lighter than the first shot. I was always trying to make the pull harder either by grinder finer (until I start seeing oily rings) or by tamping harder.

I am going to run a few more tests to try and check all the questions again.
I will also try a coarser grind and tamping lighter than the first shot as suggested to see the difference.

I think my last shots where not so bad and that I just need to find the exact balance between grind, tamping and dosing.

I also need to understand what to expect from a good pull:
How hard should it be?
When should it start feeling hard? Top or midway?
Should it be feeling consistent all the way?

I'll send more information soon...

Cutting through cheese is more of what you want. Having to hold portafilter is OK. Having to hold top and feel like a weightlifter on an exercise machine means that you've ground too fine or tamped too hard or both. Ease up and take it slower. Think sensual not forceful !

Good luck!

Cheers

Mike

So Sbenyo how are things going? It would be interesting to know. Did you give it up? Are you still experimenting? Or did you buy fresh coffee?

All of your problems can be solved by learning to roast at a basic level in a popcorn popper. Many small time roasters will tell you the beans they are selling you were just roasted yesterday, it was always roasted yesterday...in fact it's sometimes astonishing how they can have such a variety always roasted yesterday Anyway, at best they are probably between yesterday and 2 weeks old. And many times not for espresso.

Learning to roast might sound hard, and indeed people on these forums can make it sound like the most impossible task ever. But if you have decent hearing and a bit of common sense you can roast a bean better than anything you've had yet. Try a Central American bean without blending, or maybe a 50/50 blend with a Brasil and see how it goes. Here's a link that might help: http://coffeegeek.com/guides/popperroasting

I would also give your single basket a shot if you haven't already. I've found that the single basket when combined with fresh coffee (i.e. personally roasted and even frozen properly up to 4-6 weeks old if the bag is completely sealed) gives me results that are very easy to obtain. I've been able to teach friends to pull very drinkable shots their first time with the single basket.

Hi Esbenyo!

My first post on Home-Barsta... Hi you all!

I'm not a veteran in this field but I can't help thinking about you using another Europiccola. Your technique seems to be quite up to par, still you experience this variations in pressure on your handle while pulling a shot. I use an antiquated version of the machine (1965-ish) and I did a lot of maintenance over the years, including polishing the cylinder. It had some scratches and irregularities which translated in irregular resistance on the handle. Thus, leaking of water to the top of the piston. It created some nasty shots, I can assure you! If you know someone with a similar machine, I'd be curious to know how you'd perform on that one. Have you ever tried?

Good luck!

Rick

A change of seals and a good cleaning should take care of any problems, or highlight any major problems such as leaks that can't be solved by seal replacement. It seems as though he's able to build enough pressure for shots from the machine's point of view, but that the coffee bed isn't providing enough resistance. Although I could be wrong in that assessment.

Still a good cleaning to get rid of all old stale coffee oils sometimes can make a difference. But in this case I still believe that without 3-10 day old coffee roasted for espresso major progress can't be made. This is most often the case with symptoms such as this, but if sbenyo can assure us of a roast date and type of coffee used it would help put to rest those suspicions.

The Pavoni can be whipped into shape, hope it works out for the OP.

Hi All,

It's been a long time since I last posted and I must admit that since then, despite all my efforts, I could not get decent shots.
I almost gave up after so many tries and changes until I was lucky to get an old (pre-millenium) La Pavoni Pro.
With the Pro I used exactly the same sequence I used with my Europiccola.
I was afraid again that it will not be good enough, but to my big surprise my very first shot was way better than any of the shots I had before!
It was actually something I can call a decent shot without too much crema but a thick and stable one like it should be in real espresso. The shot also tasted good and not too bitter.
My following shots where more or less the same. I still use the original crap plastic tamper because I don't have a 49mm one yet but even this way I can get decent shots.

I still need time to improve but I immediately noticed the difference in pressure.
The Pro had much more pressure when pulling to clean an empty portafilter and when I pulled the shot.
I finally understood how the pressure should be. The pressure starts immediately from the beginning of the pull and lasts more or less the same till the end and requires a decent amount of power to pull.

I hope this machine even though it an old model can produce even better shots as everyone says.
I also understand now that I have to take my Europiccola to service. Now I know exactly what to ask for.

I'll keep on practicing (At least now I'm able to drink my test shots ) until I get better shots and I will post some photos soon from my new experiences. Thank a lot for all the tips so far. It was really helpful!

Regarding the La Pavoni Pro old model (per-millenium) does anyone know if this model can produce the same quality shots as the newer models? What are the differences between the models and what do they affect?

Great news!

I actually prefer the older machines. I'm not so keen on the lever action in the nylon liner on the new ones, which is supposed to stop things overheating but doesn't make a massive difference. The new ones, which have a 51mm basket, don''t infuse all the way to edges of the shower screen either and the single basket has a really stupid compromise shape to allow it to be used with....wait for it.... ground coffee pods! <Rant mode on> I mean what were they thinking of? Who on earth is going to want to buy a lever machine if they want the taste-free convenience of pods? <Rant mode off>

Sounds like your Ep needs new piston seals and maybe a new psiton if it has one of the nylon ones...

Cheers

Mike

I own an older model Europiccola as my second machine and just got one of my best shots in years by doing something different.

Since the portafilter is so small, compared to my other machine, I have always tried to compensate by filling the basket as close to the brim as possible, as long as it would fasten on to the machine. Today, I happened to grind less than that amount, so I only filled the basket around 3/4 full, but it was ground fine enough so that some decent pressure was needed to do the pull. Well, it was probably my best shot ever on this machine.

Maybe I was just lucky today. But, I'm going to try a 3/4 full basket again, to test it. I think you'd need to adjust the grind a little finer than if you had a fuller filter basket. But, that extra air space at the top seems to have done something to really improve the shot.

Here's another way to accomplish the same thing.

Fullsack wrote:My Pavoni shots improved by down dosing using a rolling finger sweep to remove some of the coffee. It ends up between 12 and 13 grams. Leveling with a straight edge overdoses the basket.

Fullsack wrote:

Here's another way to accomplish the same thing.

I take that single basket of coffee, leveled, and flip this into my double basket, for a slightly low dose. Is that what you do?

For a slightly higher dose that still misses the dispersion screen, I overfill the single basket, cover with the double basket and toss (Mr. Brown's Dispersion Technique/double basket flip), then level, and transfer to the double basket to be distributed and tamped.

Hi,

Thanks a lot for the last tips!
I was trying to over dose my old Pavoni thinking this can get me better results and I actually got the opposite. In the last few tries I got bad results. The espresso started coming out before the 10 secs wait with handle raised and pressure was low.

I took the advice and tried to does less (3/4 of double basket). I actually dosed full double basket, cleared it with the edge of a knife so it will be just fulling filling the basket and then I tamped hard resulting in the double basket more or less 3/4 full.

This time the espresso did not come out before the 10 sec wait when the handle was raised!
The pressure was good and the shot I got was really nice. One of my best shots so far with this machine.

Thanks again for the tip. It was really helpful.

BTW - How do you pull the shot? Do you use the Fellini move?

Hi gang - I have been estranged from my Europiccola for about three years due to an international move and about two months ago we were reunited. Just the other day I was in a local café and noticed they have a Diedrich's Roaster. I ordered a shot that wasn't drawn very well, but the coffee seemed pretty nice so I tried a couple of the beans and was impressed. Of course it was Friday and they had been roasted on Tuesday (always this week, huh). Anyways, the fresh beans got me interested again so I looked up this forum and found this thread. After reading through the whole thing I was so motiviated that I ran upstairs to pull some shots even though it was 8 pm. To make a long story short I have been pulling some of the best shots this machine has ever given me. It's amazing the difference in flavor to my fully automatic. Just wanted to thank you all for your input and thanks "sbenyo" for staying committed enough to get the old pros out of the woodwork and into your thread!

I've been using my pre-millenium pro for the past couple of months and I'm pretty happy with it.
I'm using all the tips I got and even though I'm still not getting the "god" shots I thought I will get, I'm able to produce decent espresso shots that are pretty good.

I still have some thought related to the pre-millenium pro model. When I use it I get gauge pressure reading of 1.1-1.2. I know that in the new pro model the pressure gauge reading is 0.8-0.9.

Is there any reason to change the pressure in the pre-millenium pro model?
Is there any difference or design limitation for the pre-millenium pro model to produce the same quality espresso shots as the new millenium model?

Well, there's a few of things to say.

Firstly, as far as I am aware there was no design change that impacted on the most desirable pressure setting and pre and post-Milleniums have been set to more or less the same values, which can easily change in transit. If anything one could argue that a higher setting is more acceptable in the new machines because of their claimed superior cooling (from design changes which quite coincidentally bring down manufacturing costs).

Then, those pressure gauges just give you an idea of how things are going from day to day; they're not in any way super-accurate. In another words adjust the gauge to get the best results for you.

The Pavs generally come with the p-stats set to around 1 bar, sometimes a little bit higher, and of course they cycle over a range of around 0.2 bar.

The lower you set the p-stat, the slower the Pav will overheat.

The lower you set the p-stat the more smooth and creamy the result, but the more "blended" in flavours. If that's your style of coffee - particularly with American beans - aim for around 0.8 as the upper limit.

If on the other hand you prefer brighter coffees, like Ethiopians, which can also have a lot of different flavours in the cup, taking the p-stat up a bit will give you a slightly less rich cup but a clearer, more delineated one. Here around 1.0 or even as high as 1.2 would be your upper limit.

If you don't want to adjust for type of beans all the time, a setting of 0.9 is a good compromise.

Lastly, the higher the pressurestat setting, the higher the pressure with which the water comes through the shower head and preinfuses the coffee. Frankly I find this is influenced much more by machine design than pressure stat setting, and in fact all of these differences are pretty subtle.

My advice would be to continue getting used to the machine until you can produce really consistent espresso the way you like it, and only then consider fine-tuning things by playing with the pressure stat. Both machines are set within an acceptable range and could in fact be closer to one another than the pressure gauge readings suggest.

Lastly, obvious as it sounds, it's worth making sure your eye is level with centred on the gauge when reading it!


Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

This is a very enlighting explanation of pressure and gauge reading.
Do you know if the higher pressure reading (1.1-1.2) can affect the amount of crema I'm getting of is it only a factor of the beans I use?

I think the best suggestion is to keep things as they are and perfect my shots as much as I can.
As soon as I am able to get good shots consistently I'll consider playing with the pressure.

Thanks!

I just happened to find the following hint (from Nov 07) in some kind of user manual for using pavoni pro:

"One problem that may arise when making espresso is producing "Crema" . This problem arises
when you understand the basic nemesis of crema, which is high water temperature. High
temperature can cause the coffee to have a strange taste that runs from burned to bitter to
"chemical", particularly with decaf. For professional models the gauge should top out a 0.7 or 0.8
on the gauge, it should never go past 1. bar, this setting will let you produce the correct espresso
and give you enough steam for cappuccino."

I hope the higher gauge reading I have does not affect the espresso I produce as stated above...

Why not just try adjusting it down to 0.8 bar or so and see if you like the change? If not you can raise it back up to maybe 1 bar, and then if it's still worse to you, back to 1.2.

As mentioned it's hard to say "1.2 bar is bad" when most of the gauges aren't accurate enough to be able to say it's actually at 1.2 bar. Your machine could actually be at around 1.5 bar or so (because of calibration), and that might be too high. Just try using it as a relative value, and not absolute and you should be good.

Thanks for the advice.
My exact gauge reading is less than 1.2 more like 1.1.

I think I'll leave it like this for now as it seems like the factory setting.
I'm using a pre-millenium pro (1993) model and as far as I know these machines were calibrated like this.

I also think the p-stat on this machine is glued and cannot be easily changed. I don't want to break it before I'm sure it's going to improve my shots.