La Pavoni DP 47 1949 handle mechanism

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GonzalesEnrique
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Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 16, 2016, 9:54 pm

La Cornutta was designed around 1947; build in 1949 as the first La Pavoni horizontal boiler espresso machine. Just two years later it was displaced for the model '51.

Does anybody know which is the mechanical system that dispenses coffee in this old machine? It has not properly "levers" (up-down). It uses some kind of rotary handles:

Image

Does it have springs? sprockets?

:roll:

Any papers about it?

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dcbrown
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Postby dcbrown » Jun 16, 2016, 10:54 pm

I can't help you, but I couldn't resist the urge to search for it. A Geo Ponti design, and a beautiful one at that. The link below has some good pics. Sounds like he was making a deliberate effort to hide the function. The short levers seem more appropriate as valve controls, than to do the actual work of moving water at high pressure. But this is pre-pump era, right? Wonder if someone can find the Italian patents.

http://www.italianways.com/gio-pontis-l ... ot-coffee/


Very cool espresso machine!

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GonzalesEnrique
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Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 17, 2016, 1:05 am

dcbrown wrote:...Sounds like he was making a deliberate effort to hide the function. The short levers seem more appropriate as valve controls, than to do the actual work of moving water at high pressure. But this is pre-pump era, right? Wonder if someone can find the Italian patents. ...Very cool espresso machine!


:shock: You're right! It's a pre-pump tech era machine! That's why those "levers" turn like a valve knob does!


:idea: So it was a stunning machine, but it probably was a commercial fiasco: It did not extract the so acclaimed Gaggia's "crema caffé"!

Image

Gaggia invented crema caffe machine in 1947 and in 1948 was produced its second version with two groups. Am I right?

Image

- La Cornutta was designed in 1947, first production started in 1948, I've read that it was commercially available in 1949. A espresso machine with 1930 technology!

Now I wonder how many of those "cornuttas" were made ...and sold!


. . .

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channo
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Postby channo » Jun 17, 2016, 7:24 am

Hi
Is à pressure of steam (1,5 / 2,5 psi) push à water.
Normaly the name of that coffee is "express" bud à italian mixte " espresso/express".
Espresso is minimum 6 psi (levers group).
The rotary handles as 3 position, one stop, one enter water and a Last open the steam for push water .
Express système (1815), espresso (1932), lever (1947), first lever Gaggia 08/7/1947 and Faema product the Gaggia 01 /1 /1948 ( like you picture)
Best
Andrea

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pootoogoo
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Postby pootoogoo » Jun 17, 2016, 8:09 am

channo wrote:Express système (1815), espresso (1932), lever (1947)


Andrea, what does the nebulous "Express système (1815)" and "espresso (1932)" exactly mean ?
Are you referring to a name or specific inventions ?
I doubt that what is defined today as "espresso" dates from 1932.

GonzalesEnrique
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Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 17, 2016, 8:52 am

channo wrote: ... The rotary handles as 3 position, one stop, one enter water and a Last open the steam for push water .
Express système (1815), espresso (1932), lever (1947), first lever Gaggia 08/7/1947 and Faema product the Gaggia 01 /1 /1948 ( like you picture)
Best

Andrea, you say that handle in La Cornutta is a 3 position valve? Do you have a scheme of the system?

Who patented "express system" in 1815?

Do you agree with me about La Pavoni did not sell so many Cornuttas?


pootoogoo wrote:I doubt that what is defined today as "espresso" dates from 1932.


Sebastien, I'm also in doubt. This is a 1922 Victoria Arduino advertisement:
Image

:roll:

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channo
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Postby channo » Jun 17, 2016, 9:13 am

Hello
For a moment I have only m'y phone and dont have picture to show you.
1815 = Sené Paris, the steam push water on a coffee ( same like Bialetti bud 100 years before)
1932 Cremonese, group espresso pressure (9psi) is screw manual and Achille Gaggia buy brevet and adapting sprint.
Andrea

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pootoogoo
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Postby pootoogoo » Jun 17, 2016, 9:34 am

Ok, maybe we don't have the same documents. On the one I have it says:
- Sené 1815 is a percolation machine, the express principle can be dated 1818 if we consider the Römershausen machine to be a precursor (see here for my references).
- The Cremonese patent is dated june 24th 1936

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pootoogoo
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Postby pootoogoo » Jun 17, 2016, 9:38 am

Enrique, there is no patent for the Cornuta group. It is just an evolution of the original 1902 Bezzera/Pavoni express group (the one on Ideale machines, see here for more).

Sansibar99
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Postby Sansibar99 » Jun 17, 2016, 10:02 am

All the right guys in one place - this is a fun thread to follow :D

Enrique, one good source for original documents on La Pavoni is:
La Pavoni :mrgreen:
Check this http://www.lapavoni.it/pavoni-world.php#museum
LMWDP #422

 
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