La Pavoni DP 47 1949 handle mechanism - Page 3

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
User avatar
pootoogoo
Posts: 189
Joined: Mar 02, 2013, 9:45 pm

Postby pootoogoo » Jun 18, 2016, 5:50 pm

Getting back to the real Express group, the Cornuta group mechanism is certainly something very similar to that one:

Image
[Campeona 1948 patent]

User avatar
channo
Posts: 140
Joined: Apr 15, 2007, 11:02 am

Postby channo » Jun 18, 2016, 7:10 pm

Maybe this is another debate but... Andrea, to answer your questions:
- There is no Sené drawing because he left a model of his coffee maker at the «Comité consultatif des Arts et Manufactures» (as this was the case for many inventions).


The logic of a researcher is to ask questions and weigh the response. Taking shortcuts to answer a question with as much certainty without proof is your responsibility.

- Tremendous exchanges between scientific people happened during this historical period and this whole idea of protecting private inventions rather than share it with the community was pretty new. France don't own 99% of the coffeemaker inventions, it is just an historical distortion created by archives availability.

This is great you are getting 1% of inventions outside France.
I'm sorry if you have influenced the historical distortion created by archives availability.
For me it's okay, I have not suffered influence when I discovered the 19th & 20th centuries these manufacturers.


France was one of the first country to institutionalize inventions a preciously kept traces of it, that's great but that's all. Reliable information can be found through scientific reports but still, lot of archives disappeared during war periods. Germany (and to some extent England) had a lot of inventions related to coffee extraction techniques, and sometimes precursors of it (Römershausen, Nörrenberg, Kessel). What to say about countries that had no patent system at all and/or, to say the least, messy archive system (such as Italy).

Either we talk about the first invention of a steam pressure by pushing coffee and argument that goes with the subject or when mixing everything for this to become a pompous blablabla irrelevant.

Concerning Sené, we refer to the same document but don't have the same interpretation: first, the terms "cercle" and "diaphragme" are tinsmith terms meaning rings or cylinders and discs of metal (refer to the 1849 «Manuel complet du ferblantier et du lampiste»). The coffeemaker is said "without ebullition" because it has a double-wall to create an "air bath". One who carefully reads the description of the 4th part ("The top of the coffeemaker is a reservoir in which the prepared coffee falls; it is placed upside down (?) on the boiler; it is retained by small copper clips which minimize evaporation") shouldn't conclude with certainty that it was the first express machine (so-called Moka pot).

Yes it is you understand that Sené has mounted water through a grind with these elements.
The coffee is said "without boiling" because it has a double wall to create an "air bath"
Without boiling because as a mocha you do not hear the water boiling, just the end of the passage of water.
A double wall to retained heat, read in patent designating this function.


This is certainly just a detail... but history is a sum of details. If you forgot decimals and replace it with too much interpretation, you may end up with the wrong result.
Is better for you personal mdesty

Just readers of this story say they believe and that's the only advice I'd be interested to hear. the (so-called Moka pot) slipped parenthesis does not interest me.
Your demonstration with Morize coffee is absolutely irrelevant and without any sense of the discussion of an steam pressure maker, and adds nothing as a new element.
For my modesty, I have also not accountable to you or to be judged by you.
Please refrain in the future from your personal attack.
Andrea

real roasters for real people
Sponsored by Mill City Roasters - real roasters for real people
User avatar
channo
Posts: 140
Joined: Apr 15, 2007, 11:02 am

Postby channo » Jun 18, 2016, 8:20 pm

GonzalesEnrique wrote:Hi Andrea,

Oh my god! I'm sure this whole information is a huge revelation not only for me but for many more members of this club. I am proud to be surrounded by knowledgeable and valuable people.

Do you have any schema or drawing about the old steam driver mechanism? I would like to reproduce it for teaching purposes.

Thank you! :D


Dont have schema technic for a system sorry! if you need somthing info for you project, contact me.
Best
Andrea

GonzalesEnrique
Posts: 56
Joined: May 23, 2015, 10:19 pm

Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 18, 2016, 11:52 pm

channo wrote:Dont have schema technic for a system sorry! if you need somthing info for you project, contact me.
Best


Thanks Anrdea! I will be in touch :D

GonzalesEnrique
Posts: 56
Joined: May 23, 2015, 10:19 pm

Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 19, 2016, 12:04 am

pootoogoo wrote:Getting back to the real Express group, the Cornuta group mechanism is certainly something very similar to that one


:shock: Thank you Sebastien, this drawing and its related document is clear enough to start with my project!

You all are true connoisseurs! :)

User avatar
pootoogoo
Posts: 189
Joined: Mar 02, 2013, 9:45 pm

Postby pootoogoo » Jun 19, 2016, 1:06 am

channo wrote:1815 = Sené Paris, the steam push water on a coffee ( same like Bialetti bud 100 years before)
1932 Cremonese, group espresso pressure (9psi) is screw manual and Achille Gaggia buy brevet and adapting sprint.


:?

That was the two points I was discussing because they both appeared (to me) to be wrong...
Sorry if I misinterpreted your misinterpretation.

«Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.»

User avatar
drgary
Team HB
Posts: 9217
Joined: Feb 07, 2010, 4:16 pm

Postby drgary » Jun 19, 2016, 3:17 pm

This thread is so rich in espresso history that is so thoroughly documented I've added it to the FAQs and Favorites list.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

home of Cafelat products online
Sponsored by CafelatStore - home of Cafelat products online
GonzalesEnrique
Posts: 56
Joined: May 23, 2015, 10:19 pm

Postby GonzalesEnrique » Jun 19, 2016, 6:32 pm

drgary wrote:This thread is so rich in espresso history that is so thoroughly documented I've added it to the FAQs and Favorites list.


Thanks for this new oportunity Gary!

...now look at this!

http://www.comunicaffe.it/giovanni-achille-gaggia-cosi-rivoluziono-il-modo-di-estrarre-il-caffe/

:D

User avatar
pootoogoo
Posts: 189
Joined: Mar 02, 2013, 9:45 pm

Postby pootoogoo » Jul 08, 2016, 8:03 pm

Just wanted to add that the term "espresso" is indeed related to Bezzera invention (as mention above — don't be confused, the picture posted "Apparechio Sezionato" is a Victoria Arduino who also contributed a lot to this mode of preparation) but, to be inline with this thread, a special mention goes to Pavoni who bought, produced and commercialized Bezzera's system and express machines, through his first product named the "Ideale" (from 1901). Luigi Bezzera was a clever bartender (as Angelo Moriondo who really invented this system back in 1884 but who kept his invention for his own use in is bar, the «Gran Caffè Ligure», and as Achille Gaggia much later), Desiderio Pavoni was the businessman behind the success of this mode of preparation and certainly the one who invented the term "espresso" (since it is not a term mentioned in the original 1901 Bezzera patent).

Image
[source: wikipedia]

The famous 1906 Milan universal exposition picture is the first known mention of the word "espresso" (the name Bezzera appears at the top, the name "Pavoni" appears on the column, as a reference for sales).

User avatar
pootoogoo
Posts: 189
Joined: Mar 02, 2013, 9:45 pm

Postby pootoogoo » Dec 23, 2016, 9:37 am

I have other bits of history to mention, seems to be the right place to do so.

First, on the Cornuta model: there is a patent existing but for design and model (it was deposited on October 20th 1947, number IT27438; you'll find it on my episode 23). From what I've recently discovered this model is one of the first horizontal boiler machine (La Marzocco had a patent back in 1939 but it is really not sure they actually build these machine with the beginning of the war). Well, almost the first one: it is Cimbali who really commercialized the very first horizontal boiler machine with the Ala model (in early 1947) and later with the Gioiello.

My last, but not least discovery is about a well known picture : the Giuseppe Cimbali picture, dated close to 1912 (in front of his first commercial address). It is not as famous as the 1906 Bezzera picture above, but it should...

Image

If you look carefully to the coffee machines in his workshop, there's a Bezzera Gigante at the back (very first model from 1901 patent, no other known picture to my knowledge) and... what I believe to be the first (and maybe only) picture of a A. Moriondo machine (inventor of the express machine, patent dated 1884), in front.
A piece of history that was waiting to be discovered. :D

You'll find all the details on the episode 24 I just posted (in French).