I have a somewhat tangential question, and I apologize if it has been answered on another spring vs. manual thread. Is a Europiccola more forgiving with the grind than an Export/Lusso? I'm thinking about purchasing one, and I believe I read that manual levers are more forgiving because one can add/subtract force to somewhat compensate for problems with the grind. I would probably take Timo's advice from a previous thread and spring for a manual grinder- how would a Lusso/Export perform with that type of grinder? Thank you. Great thread and great review, by the way!

With a manual lever the barista can increase the pressure or reduce the pressure, but with a spring-lever one can only reduce the pressure, pace peacecup's acrobatic maneuver with his Ponte Vecchio Export where he presses down on the piston rod directly. The ability to make ad hoc adjustments might save the shot from going down the sink, but such adjusments are not going to produce coffee nectar. So I would not base the selection on this difference. If faced with a choice between a domestic spring lever like the Ponte Vecchio Lusso or the Export, and a manual lever such as the Europiccola, I would focus on these differences:

difference between ~6 bars (spring) and ~9 bars (manual)

The non-expert barista interested in forgiveness factors will find it easier to avoid channeling and overextraction with the spring lever's 6 bars and taller basket, IMO. 9 bars with 51mm basket can produce a more robust shot and more mousselike crema. The spring's 6 bars with 45mm basket produces a more syrupy crema and a consistently smooth shot. Greater crema volume is not an indication of a superior or better-tasting espresso; sometimes it indicates that the roast is still very gassy and needs a few more days rest

convenience of steaming while the shot is completing (spring-lever can do this)

My wife is impressed by the ease and speed of preparation with the Lusso. The spring allows ones hands to be free much more. Making espresso is less work with a spring. The more espresso drinkers the barista is preparing coffee for, the greater the benefit of this leisurely aspect of the spring lever.

aesthetics

boxy or belle ?

GRINDER
A manual grinder (KYM, Trosser, Zassenhaus) with new sharp burrs would certainly be fine. It is difficult to know when buying a used manual grinder on eBay how worn the burrs are.

Regards
Timo

timo888 wrote:difference between ~6 bars (spring) and ~9 bars (manual)
Timo

Hey Timo, why do you think the PV produces 6 bar? (Did I miss a post somewhere?)

Henry

Dogshot wrote:If you define the end of the shot as the point at which it begins to blonde, then I maintain that with the way the PV group under-extracts, there is no way you can get a brew ratio near 60%. If you can show me how to brew a shot on the PV that ends at the point of blonding and where the shot weighs significantly less than 170% of the dose weight, I would love to see it (and try it).

Certainly one wants to pull the cup if the flow blondes. But I don't define the shot as the point at which it begins to blonde. What if my shots don't blonde? What if I am happy (as I am) with an extraction that gives me a 1-oz shot after two full pulls, even if I might have given another semi-pull and gotten a few additional milliliters of good espresso from the dose in the basket? Who cares if I leave a half-gram of unspent coffee in the basket? That is how a 6 bar machine "under-extracts" -- it wastes a smidgen of coffee. The espresso itself is not 'underextracted'.

The until-the-flow-blondes definition might make practical economic sense for an espresso chain concerned about wastage of fractional grams of coffee adding up to real money after tens or hundreds of thousands of shots pulled, but I see no compelling reason to impose it upon the home espresso enthusiast.

Regards
Timo

timo888 wrote:The until-the-flow-blondes definition might make practical economic sense for an espresso chain concerned about wastage of fractional grams of coffee adding up to real money after tens or hundreds of thousands of shots pulled, but I see no compelling reason to impose it upon the home espresso enthusiast.

Nor do I. However, the blonding point is a frame of reference that allows us to share the concept of brew ratios, and therefore to discuss shots that share certain qualities. By working from the same point of reference, we can provide each other with dis/confirmatory perceptions. This can help to build our knowledge of the PV group, and how to get the most from our machines. For example, I am trying to answer the following question - can the PV group user produce a shot with a brew ratio as high as or greater than 60% (Andy's definition of the starting point of a ristretto)?

Mark

timo888 wrote:Certainly one wants to pull the cup if the flow blondes. But I don't define the shot as the point at which it begins to blonde. What if my shots don't blonde? What if I am happy (as I am) with an extraction that gives me a 1-oz shot after two full pulls, even if I might have given another semi-pull and gotten a few additional milliliters of good espresso from the dose in the basket? Who cares if I leave a half-gram of unspent coffee in the basket? That is how a 6 bar machine "under-extracts" -- it wastes a smidgen of coffee. The espresso itself is not 'underextracted'.

The until-the-flow-blondes definition might make practical economic sense for an espresso chain concerned about wastage of fractional grams of coffee adding up to real money after tens or hundreds of thousands of shots pulled, but I see no compelling reason to impose it upon the home espresso enthusiast.

Regards
Timo

"Blonde" is not a rule or even the same color to everybody, it is only about making a connection between color and taste... and using it this knowledge to end the shot when you think it tastes best.

As far as I can tell a clear definition of when to end a shot is missing from Andy's tables, which might be contributing to the confusion here.

Henry

EDIT: here is the link for reference- http://www.home-barista.com/forum...verages-t2402.html

Dogshot wrote:Nor do I. However, the blonding point is a frame of reference that allows us to share the concept of brew ratios, and therefore to discuss shots that share certain qualities. By working from the same point of reference, we can provide each other with dis/confirmatory perceptions. This can help to build our knowledge of the PV group, and how to get the most from our machines. For example, I am trying to answer the following question - can the PV group user produce a shot with a brew ratio as high as or greater than 60% (Andy's definition of the starting point of a ristretto)?

Yes, if you allow me to determine the dose and grind and tamp and the water volume I send through the cake and the pressure I send it through with (e.g. partial pull versus full pull), and if you do not require me to keep sending water through the cake into the cup until the flow blondes, then of course the Ponte Vecchio Lusso can pull a ristretto, i.e. a richer tasting more intense extraction whose dose-weight to beverage-weight ratio would meet or exceed Andy's range which is a 1-to-1 ratio, ±.

But the "algorithm" would vary by blend, roast depth, roast age, grind, dose, and temperature, all of which affect the extraction.

There are more opportunities for nuance and variability in a spring-lever machine with tapering brew pressure than there are in an electric pump machine with relatively constant pressure and water flow. Sharing knowledge about a spring lever is a much more nebulous affair than sharing knowledge about an electric pump machine whose performance is more easily quantified and analyzed; and yet even with an electric pump, relatively minor differences in, say, the pressure ramp up curve, can result in differences in the cup.

Regards
Timo

The whole brew ratio question has been of interest to me since I started using the Ponte Vecchio, because I am using a relatively high dose (15g) to make a relatively small shot (1-1.5 oz.). For a long time I took three or even four pulls because I was accustomed to brew ratios on the order of 15g:2 oz. Two-pull shots tasted a bit too syrupy for me. I have learned to like them more, and now they tend to be the norm. I did this partly to reduce the amount of caffeine per espresso as well, so that I could have more smaller doses rather than fewer larger doses.

Even if I constrain myself to two pulls, however, there are (nearly) endless combinations of grind/dose/tamp that can play out differently in the cup.

Today's experiments are with coarser grinds, trying to see if I get sweeter shots via the more complete extraction hypothesis (which I am not convinced applies to 45 mm baskets anyway). Besides, I want to give the cotter pin a rest!

I might even try dosing less (heaven forbid).

PC

hbuchtel wrote:"Blonde" is not a rule or even the same color to everybody, it is only about making a connection between color and taste... and using it this knowledge to end the shot when you think it tastes best.

As far as I can tell a clear definition of when to end a shot is missing from Andy's tables, which might be contributing to the confusion here.

I agree with you, Henry, about the blonde gradient. A rough measure. But I think there is no need to determine when to end the shot when focusing on brew-ratios because it isn't really necessary. You need the dose and the beverage. The volume and weight of the beverage can vary according to the dose. You could pull a ristretto on that super-mini machine that was brought to our collective attention a few months ago, if'n you had a teeny grinder and miniature beans.

Regards
Timo

timo888 wrote:What if my shots don't blonde?

Well, then only 2 more miracles, and your espresso machine qualifies for canonization .

timo888 wrote: What if I am happy (as I am) with an extraction that gives me a 1-oz shot after two full pulls, even if I might have given another semi-pull and gotten a few additional milliliters of good espresso from the dose in the basket?

What decision rule to you use then to decide when to stop a shot?


Mark