Bluecold wrote:Puck depth-wise, you're right, but headspace- and brew ratio wise, the comparison isn't valid

Headspace will vary from machine to machine and basket to basket. Brew ratio, to some extent, is under control of the operator. But an 18g dose on a Pavoni is guaranteed to produce a ristretto with a single pull. It's the equivalent of a triple dose in a double basket, and the lever pull volume is fixed.

TheMuffinMan01 wrote:And my shot tasted pretty similar to some 18g dose shots pulled commercially, so it doesn't taste like massive updosing.

In my experience, the taste profile of home lever shots does not mimic that of commercial machines, either pump or lever. However, my experience is limited to the Pavoni Europiccola, Gaggia Factory and Elektra MCaL. It is certainly possible that some combination of beans and dose on your Pavoni produces a shot similar to that of some commercial machine, at least to your taste buds.

I think the pavoni is just giving me a lot more perspective about dosing than working in a shop has. Less just making it taste good, more understanding why it tastes good (i haven't been at it all that long yet though). The coffee it reminded me of is te aro's kenya kandara, the acidity developed in a very similar way. To me though, it makes sense that 18 grams to one ounce in an identical amount of time, regardless of the basket dimensions, will be very very similar, especially with similar pre-infusion.

I'm having the same experience as TheMuffinMan with respect to dose size on my La Pavoni (post-M.) Everything I read on HB convinces me that I should be dosing 14 grams or less, and I keep trying that, but my favorite shots are always 16-17 gram, sometimes 18. I've played with loose, no-headspace tamps but can't say that I've gotten that to work for me.

Right now I'm using Black Cat, ground nearly-choked fine (on a Baratza Virtuoso) - I use my dandy little OE funnel, WDT (stir) to break all the clumps, remove the funnel and give it a light settling knock before chopping/leveling it even with the PF top, then tamp (NSEW) as level as possible before giving it a good hard tamp and twist. When I measure this it's around 17g, and safely below the basket rim (on my machine the shower screen is about 7 mm below the gasket.) After pulling a shot, I sometimes check by putting a nickel on top and locking back in. When I take it out it is only partly indented in the puck. Also, I've checked that a nickel weighs 5g on my scale, so I think the scale is reasonably accurate.

My machine seems to fill the group slowly and it takes a few careful pumps to replace most of the air cushion with water, so I start gently pre-pumping at 6 seconds and start the real pull at 15 - 20 seconds, pulling about a 18-25 g shot in 25 - 35 seconds with one lever stroke. (sometimes when it is nearly choked it might even take 40+ seconds.) At the stroke bottom I'm still pulling against an air cushion with extraction slowing and beginning to blond when I pull the cup.

My taste buds are still learning about coffee, and I often find espressos from good cafes to be a little bitter for my taste. Yet I really love these high dose ristrettos from my La Pavoni.

-Pat

entropyembrace wrote:What basket are you using?

There's no way 18g would fit in a pre-millenium la pavoni double basket...15g is the most I can fit in mine and that's with dense light roasted beans. That's why you see 14g it's because that's all we can fit in the old La Pavoni double baskets.

Totally different story for millenium La Pavonis...53mm basket is quite a bit bigger than the old 49mm.

Plus some people use Elektra a leva baskets in old La Pavonis.

So there's at least 3 different kinds of double baskets people are using in their la pavoni europiccolas and pros...that's why you see so many different doses being posted.

My confession, with photos. Pavoni Basket Size Identification

Aha, that makes sense, that we are using baskets with different capacities. I was allowing for the pre-M/post-M difference in basket diameter, which would be a pretty small factor (51 squared / 49 squared = 1.08) - but I think it's also likely that my post-M basket is deeper than the authentic pre-M basket.

I've posted my basket dimensions on Phillip's other thread - pavoni-basket-size-identification-t16536.html#p216083.