Dear all,

First of all let me say how excited I am for joining this group: manual machines are simply stunning pieces of equipment. I was looking for an espresso machine for some time now, did my research and just landed on a La Pavoni Europiccola as my choice for an Espresso machine. Super-excited I've ordered the machine online and waited for it to arrive. It did yesterday but unfortunately it pretty much killed my excitement: from the time I've opened the pack, the idea that the machine has been used stack to my mind, here is why:
1) There was no plastic wrapping around the machine.
2) There was no video or cleaning solution included in the pack (should there be one?).
3) The tamper had the oily feel that coffee leaves on it.
4) The cappuccino attachment had something like corrosion (on the chromium piece).
5) There was a bit of water inside the machine.
6) The portafilter had brass exposed in one (small) area. On this now, after 10 uses or so, brass is exposed let's say up in 30% of the portafilter area: is that normal?
7) The portafilter does not stop when inserted & turned by 45 degrees, but if pushed (quite a bit) can go up to 90 degrees (practically vertical to the lever): is this normal?
8 The lever has some flex right & left.

All in all I'm feeling miserable thinking that someone else has previously used the machine before me (because it wasn't working properly?) and I'm really not sure for how long.

Can you help me out understand whether (a) this has happened and (b) to what degree? Based on your experience, what should I look into in-order to understand how much this machine has been used in the past?
many thx in advance!

Peter

Belbo wrote:1) There was no plastic wrapping around the machine.
2) There was no video or cleaning solution included in the pack (should there be one?).
3) The tamper had the oily feel that coffee leaves on it.
4) The cappuccino attachment had something like corrosion (on the chromium piece).
5) There was a bit of water inside the machine.
6) The portafilter had brass exposed in one (small) area. On this now, after 10 uses or so, brass is exposed let's say up in 30% of the portafilter area: is that normal?
7) The portafilter does not stop when inserted & turned by 45 degrees, but if pushed (quite a bit) can go up to 90 degrees (practically vertical to the lever): is this normal?
8 The lever has some flex right & left.

1. If the machine was new there should have been some wrapping. Then again, many companies that sell machines test them before they go out the door.
2. Pavoni's never come with cleaning solution, don't worry about this. The instruction video that sometimes come with them is pretty useless too. Don't worry about it. You will find considerably better information on this forum.
3. As stated before the machines are often tested before sale. Then again this could be a used machine. Stil try not to worry about this too much. These machines can run for many many years before giving up the ghost.
4. Is this the frothing attachment or the steam wand itself? The frothing attachement on Pavonis is less than worthless. The steam wand is the way to go, though it will take some practice to get used to its quirks.
5. A small amount of water inside the machine is fairly normal, for reasons stated in 1 & 3.
6. This one is definitely not normal.
7. The portafilter should never be at a 90 degree angle to the lever. Doing this too many times will ruin the screen gasket. An approximate 45 degree angle is the proper set for the portafilter to be locked in.
8. These levers always have some amount of play from side to side. It is nothing you should worry about.

So I hope this has answered some of your questions. As to how used the machine is, well there are several ways to find out. One is to ask the seller. Did they state that it was a new from the factory model, or was it unstated? Was it an ebay purchase? Another way to have some clue as to the age of the machine is too measure the portafilter basket. Is it 49 mm or is it 51 mm? A 49 mm basket is pre 1999, so it will have seen a decent amount of use. A 51 mm is a millenium model.

Belbo wrote:Dear all,
Super-excited I've ordered the machine online and waited for it to arrive. It did yesterday but unfortunately it pretty much killed my excitement: from the time I've opened the pack, the idea that the machine has been used stack to my mind, here is why: Peter

So you ordered this unit from what sort of online retailer? This was advertised as a new machine? If they have any reputability at all... call them, explain that you feel that you have received a used machine and why, ask for a return authorization and send it back! If you were sold something as new and you feel it is used and you used a credit card for the purchase tell the retailer that you are considering a dispute through the Credit card company. You should get their full attention at that point.

Belbo wrote:1) There was no plastic wrapping around the machine.
2) There was no video or cleaning solution included in the pack (should there be one?).
3) The tamper had the oily feel that coffee leaves on it.
4) The cappuccino attachment had something like corrosion (on the chromium piece).
5) There was a bit of water inside the machine.
6) The portafilter had brass exposed in one (small) area. On this now, after 10 uses or so, brass is exposed let's say up in 30% of the portafilter area: is that normal?
7) The portafilter does not stop when inserted & turned by 45 degrees, but if pushed (quite a bit) can go up to 90 degrees (practically vertical to the lever): is this normal?
8 The lever has some flex right & left.

Peter

Hi Peter,
In the last few weeks I have gotten 2 new La Pavoni Europiccolas from Wiliams Sonoma.

Here are my answers:
1. Neither of the bodies of my machines were wrapped. They were set in the styrofoam packaging in the box. The tamper, coffee scoop were in a stapled plastic bag though.
2. Both of my machines came with the video, cleaning solution, and the instruction manual with the registration card in the box on top of the foam packaging. This machine was imported by European Gifts & Housewares. The instructions and warranty card came from them, not from Williams Sonoma.
3. Not sure about this.
4. My auto frother had no corrosion or anything else.
5. This is normal. The instructions say that the machine may have been tested, which may leave some water behind.
6. Brass exposed? I don't think this is normal at all. Neither of my machines came like that?
7. Don't think this is normal. My PF does not go that far. If I take out the basket it is much looser and will turn further, but with the basket in it won't turn that far
8. This seems normal. There is some play in the lever from left to right.

So it seems yours may have been used. As others have posted, did you get it at a retail location? or Ebay? Was it sold as New? My suggestion would have been to contact the seller before using it, if I had suspected it was used. Why did you use it 10 times then ask the questions? Just curious.

Dear all,

Many thx for your answers: you are making this easy for me. I think I probably over-reacted on this. I've talked with the vendor (and a lot of your comments helped) on understanding that a lot of these things were normal and actually the machine seems to be brand-new (vendor is very well-known). As far as I understand it they actually do test each and every one of the machines in the plant, so that explains the water a lot. Also the fact that this was my first machine (and coffee produced absolutely sucks!) didn't help either. I'll keep pulling shots and see what happens!

Panos

I'm glad you're relieved, but to be clear:

1. exposed brass is *not* normal, certainly not on a new machine. this should be addressed.

2. The portafilter shouldn't turn that far (if I am correct in understanding your description). Looking down on the group head, the portafilter handle points to 6 o'clock when first placed into the group, and rests at ~7:30 when fully locked in. Stated another way, a 45 degree clockwise turn should be all the further it goes.

I'd recommend having these two issues sorted before your period of ownership goes much further.

Good luck!

A2chromepeacock wrote:I'm glad you're relieved, but to be clear:

1. exposed brass is *not* normal, certainly not on a new machine. this should be addressed.

2. The portafilter shouldn't turn that far (if I am correct in understanding your description). Looking down on the group head, the portafilter handle points to 6 o'clock when first placed into the group, and rests at ~7:30 when fully locked in. Stated another way, a 45 degree clockwise turn should be all the further it goes.

1. I think I can shed some light on this from a PM I received. The exposed brass is inside the pf, and started to come off, I think mostly after the machine arrived. Still probably something to take up with the seller. Mine certainly isn't completely exposed, even after a year of daily use.

2. The OP was wrenching the pf all the way to the 90 degree angle. In his first post he mentions that...

Belbo wrote:7) The portafilter does not stop when inserted & turned by 45 degrees, but if pushed (quite a bit) can go up to 90 degrees (practically vertical to the lever

I am fairly certain that most pavoni's would be able to do this, were one wanting to destroy their shower screen gasket.

I do agree with you though that he needs to discuss these issues with the seller, especially the chrome on the pf.

OK let me clarify this (again really appreciate your help on this!):
- Brass exposed: when I received it there was 1 (roughly 4-5mm) area that brass was completely exposed - I'm not sure of the exact state of the rest but that I had noticed. Now, after a few uses, the exposed area remains and on the bottom of the inside area of the portafilter, there is a "yellowish" tone on 30% of the area. Cannot say that brass is completely exposed, but if you look at it you feel that part of the area is yellowish. IS THIS NORMAL?
- Portafilter "locking": When I insert and turn at 45 it actually locks very well and it is extremely tight. If I really push it HARD it can go a little bit further, however the 90 degrees turn can only be achieved without the basket. MY MISTAKE HERE PROBABLY, APOLOGIES!
- The cappuccino attachment is indeed corroded but the online vendor offer to replace it.

Overall, the brass issue is what troubles me at all but again not sure whether it is an issue or not!

Panos

OK, On the brass showing.... I've got a Gaggia Factory 16 cup, which was manufactured by La Pavoni for Gaggia. It's a La Pavoni Pro with a slightly different boiler (shaped differently @ the top and the Boiler Safety OPV is integrated into the boiler cap). I've had two of these machines and BOTH of them had light chroming on the INSIDE of the P/F... Not quite true brass color, but definitely a yellowish cast to it and the OUTSIDE is all shiny chrome! There's a group of people (and some of them are busy contributors on this site! ) who insist that you should remove ALL chrome from the inside of the P/F (and properly season the P/F every time you clean it) for reasons of taste (in the cup). I've not done that but may at some point in the future!

The chrome on the inside of the pf will eventually be worn away, no matter how well you clean it. It is something I simply don't worry about. The chrome on mine has been disappearing a bit more rapidly lately, since it has seen increased use now that I have a worthwhile grinder.