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Help! Espresso from Europiccola has thin crema with sour / bitter taste

Postby IanB on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:40 am

Image
my machine is clean pre millenium euro with pressure stat and new seals
beans are fresh
pic is about a min after pulling
generally little thin crema
taste is sour / bitter hard to know the difference
i pull water thru the pf to warm before dosing
pucks are solid not soupy no signs of channeling i can see
can someone help me please???
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Postby Randy G. on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:56 am

Have you measured the temperature of the brew water?
Have you tried varying the grind?
Was it working properly for you before?
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Postby IanB on Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:42 pm

I have a milk thermometer but that doesnt seem accurate enough for getting a good idea of whats going on in the head? The amount of force i need to pull thru seems very inconsistent sometimes more force is required with a coarser grind? I can get the machine to lock up with grind. The second shot is usually harder to pull than the first? I there a test for the pressure stat?

Beans are fresh redbird

This is a machine that has had very little use I bought it in 94 and used it a couple of times only.
Recently fired it back up cleaned several times and new piston seals.
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Postby MattJ on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:58 pm

JUST MY OPINION:

I bought a new ep about six years ago. If I did it all over again I would immediately install a pressure gauge. I know orphan espresso and some other places have a conversion nut. I fashioned my own, but however you do it that would be my first step. Once the gauge is installed you kinda know what's going on in the boiler. Next I would try a super fine grind and a thirty pound tamp and see if you can borderline choke it and pull a ristretto. There are some great threads on here for ep owners. The Thomas Cara thread would be an excellent place to start. I think fresh beans, a super fine grind, sufficient head space (dose even with the top of the portafilter, tap a couple of times on the counter, then tamp), and of course a machine that produces hot enough water is what I would focus on. Research a couple of overextracted shots too, so then you know when and if the machine is too hot. Good luck!
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Postby IanB on Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:31 am

One of the really frustrating things is this am I pulled two shots.........the first one ran thru the machine super fast like under 10 secs ...........I came down 2 clicks on the rocky and the second pull was very nearly locked I had to totally muscle it thru. :?:

Does the machine change this much with heat or is the grinder suspect?

Is the pressure stat as comes from the factory correct?
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Postby MattJ on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:42 pm

well, ep owners have long vowed that stepless is the only way to go because of the machine's sensitivity to grind

I would try and follow the age old espresso advice of only change one factor at a time

in the example you gave you accidentally changed two factors and probably three: water level, grind, and tamp being very difficult to replicate exactly

I find that my machine pulls a hotter shot with less water in the boiler - scientifically I can't argue why - a lot of people would say that's because there has been more water through the group head and would try and cool it with a wet cool towel - but I observe this even if it's the first shot

also, mine sometimes goes through what I'm starting to dub a "phantom cycle" - I think it's the pressurestat malfunctioning and leaving the heater coil on longer and the pressure will spike above a bar

I guess the only real advice I would stand behind is not to get discouraged. Keep playing with the factors and keep asking questions on here - sometimes the crew around these forums can get a little surly but don't let that bother you. I think if you're persistent then your shots get better and better until they're all pretty good with some great ones thrown in

edit: the "gusher" style, very fast shot, that you experienced is probably due to channeling - I think I get those when my tamp isn't super level. It helps to have a tamper with a ridge around it so you can compare it to the rounded bit on the portafilter - try and make your headspace around the top of the puck very even - good luck!

edit 2: the pstat on mine was set too low to my liking from the factory - I only figured that out after installing the pressure gauge which allowed me to fix it
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Postby KnowGood on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:04 am

There are way too many variables to take into account, especially when using a LaPav... like:

• are you weighing your dose?
• fine grind light tamp or course with hard? (by light I mean light 1-2lbs of pressure)
• are you releasing the false pressure out of the steam wand?
• do you leave headroom between the coffee and the dispersion screen?
• how long to do you pre-infuse for?

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Postby IanB on Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:26 pm

Hey there guys please forgive my ignorance and thanks so much again,

I fill to the top of the sight glass
heat until boiler goes off then I release false pressure
cup is heated in microwave
once up to temp I pull water thru the head and the PF
I grind into the PF shaking it against the holder to even out until level with lip
I take the basket out and tap it against the counter and once satisfied with level I tamp 30lbs and polish
cup and PF ready I load the PF and pull steam to temp surf....when heater goes off I pull the shot.

The first shot now pulls with a good resistance but still not much crema and I think a slightly burned taste

When I try and pull a second shot with the exact same grind and tamp the machine is now very nearly totally locked??
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Postby MattJ on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:16 pm

now it sounds like your grind is too fine

perhaps try one step more coarse with the same tamp

I like Sweet Maria's photo essay depicting extraction levels as an intro to what your crema tells you about your machine, beans, grind, and tamp

http://www.sweetmarias.com/espresso-crema.php
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Postby JmanEspresso on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:28 am

Your comments about the difference in how the first two shots run, the first being too quick, the second being too slow, lead me to think that the grinder, or rather, your usage of the grinder, might be at fault.

Prior to making coffee, I generally purge through about 5-7grams of coffee.. I dont keep beans in my hopper, I single dose.. And even with the Major, a grinder which holds very very little coffee back in the chamber, there is still a difference in flow from the first two shots, if I dont purge before the first shot.(for the major, there is no need to purge the amount I do, but I also pull a garbage single sink shot prior to making coffee)

So, the difference between the first two shots could very well be that there is some stale coffee in the chamber/chute, which is being included in your first shot, making it run faster than it should at the given grind setting. Then, you adjust the grinder finer, because the shot ran too quick, and now the machine chokes. The grinder likely didn't need to be adjusted finer, it was just the stale coffee tricking you. So, whether or not you keep beans in the hopper or you single dose, my first suggestion is to start out by purging 5-7grams through the grinder, THEN grinding for your shot.


As to the first picture in your first post.. That shot looks like either stale coffee or wayy too hot of a brew temperature.. Very possibly a combination of both. Just to be sure, when you say "Beans are Fresh", you are certain of this? ie: the bag has a "Roasted On" date on the bag, and they're less than 14days old? Im not trying to be condescending or anything, just figured its the easiest way too rule out the beans. When I say the picture looks like stale coffee, it could be a)the coffee is stale, or b)what I described above about stale coffee being held back in the grinder from the last session.
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