Greetings all...I've been lurking around in HB for sometime now but have never posted since I didn't feel I had anything significant to add. This is my first and I hope it's a useful to some of the folks out there.

As way of introduction, I've had my LP Europiccola for 7 years or so but only really took the time to learn about coffee and how to use it seriously until a year or so ago - so i consider myself a 1 year coffee veteran. I went through the usual journey of finding the right grind size for the LP, how hard to pull and wondering why people keep talking about overheating. It was also a journey of developing my taste buds.

Having nailed down what i thought was a decent routine for the LP, an experienced buddy recently suggested a new way of managing the temp issue with the LP and it's resulted in a much better cup for me hence my post here.

This new routine essentially focused on pulling the shots at a much lower temp. The routine involves, having the top cap off and boiling the water till 90'C (thermometer inside) at which point i turn it off and replace the top cap. I then grind finer than usual and start preinfusing the coffee using 4-7 pulls using the lever. Since the temp is so low, there is no pressure in the boiler (usually about 1bar?) - it's just the lever's pressure doing all the work. Once the coffee in the portafilter has expanded and i feel resistance from my preinfusion pulls, i then do my main pull (much harder pull than usual!). This method means my coffee is much cooler using the LP than before and I can comfortably pull 2 shots like this without overheating. By third it can get iffy at which time I need to start doing temp management ie. cold tower over the group to cool things down.

Note, the way I tell if the water temp is right is by looking at how the water pours out from the screen as i draw water using the lever. The temp is right if I'm seeing individual 'drops'. If i see the drops bunching up as streams or i see some 'steam' then it's too hot. ps - i bought a cheap mirror that angles to help me look at my screen/naked portafilter...great tip from a mate!

Compared to my old routine, which is to boil the LP until it switches itself off, I'm getting much more balanced cup, far less bright with more layers. All things being equal, this method just brews the coffee at a lower temp. The classic LP issue of overheating between cup 1 to 3 doesn't go away. It just 'overheats' at a lower temp.

Interesting. It's worth a try! It'd be a good idea to pump the group with PF in place for a bit to ensure that the 200 degree water warms the group and PF to as close to 200 degrees as possible before extracting a shot.

I'll give it a try tomorrow, thanks. Oh, and welcome! Although I'm far from new to coffee, I'm fairly new around here and I've found that people are generally polite, interesting, and well versed in lever usage.

Here's my Pavoni/Hario set-up:

hi Chad, cheers for the reply.

I find all the talk about warming up the group head is unnecessary in the LP (i think more for semi-auto machines). The group warms up pretty quickly after 1-2 flushes and from cold i naturally heat up my group just by my preinfusion pulls. After 5-7 half pulls, as the coffee expands, my head is already warm enough. Usually, by cup 3, the head is too hot hence the need to cool it down with a towel. The mind set change for me here is that we want a 'cool' LP....so anything we read/learn that needs to warm it up is counter intuitive. Remember you need to grind EVEN finer to compensate for lack of pressure in the boiler. Oh, and do expect the coffee cake to be wet with water. Don't let a nice cake be judge of taste...try the coffee.

Have a go, let me know how you find it.

First off, on a sidenote, I really like your Grinder/Machine-combo. Finally someone with the right priorities.

Regarding your theory... I find it a bit weird I have to say, because I find the temperature of the group-head to be much more crucial than the temperature of the water in the boiler. At least in my experience, for the first 1-2 pulls it hardly makes a difference if I set my boiler pressure to 0,7 or 1,0 bar. It does make a significant difference how much I flush and preheat the group-head, though.

All that said, it's an interesting approach and I might try it myself to see what happens. I've wondered before why Pavonis and Olympias regulate the heating unit with a pressurestat rather than a thermostat. I guess it has to do with peoples priorities being milk-based drinks and thus steaming?

Dergitarrist...cheers. As I said, I'm new to this 'serious' coffee and I took the advise of a friend and 'threw' my money into the grinder.

I'm far from any expert....but in my simple mind...i'm trying to brew the coffee around 90'c so yes, i want the head to be around 90'C. So if i boil the water till just over 90'C, turn off, do 1-2 pulls to warm up the head, and start pre-infusion, i'm thinking the group would be around 90'C by that time. I have no way to measure this but this is my 'theory'. Having owned the unit for 7 years, I know how hot the group used to be by touch when i used to let the pressurestat turn itself off and applying 1-3 flushes. This 'method' is way cooler on the head.

As for steaming milk, i now often do 2 pulls of coffee before switching the the LP on again to full boil to do my milk. That way I have 2 drinks brewed 'cool' and yet able to make milk

I guess a cool mod would be to have a switch on your Machine: Mode 1 enables thermostat and boils water to 95°C or whatever you set it to, Mode 2 bypasses thermostat and operates as usual, with a pressostat.

Could be really subtle, too by just replacing the 2-way switch with a 3-way one that has a mid-position.

Mhhh... it's been a while since I took my Cremina apart...

For a more detailed look at how important the brew-head-temp is, head here: Olympia Cremina Temperature Study, Part 1

90 degrees Celsius is 194 degrees F. That seems awfully low to me. On my La Pavoni, with a PID controller, I run the boiler at 234.0 degrees. This gives me water out of the group head that is about 195 to 200 degrees.

Have you checked the temperature of the water coming out of the group head, using your method? It seems like it would be in the 175 to 180 range, which is generally too low for pulling shots.

Ray

@dergitarrist - interesting read. I've started reading but will need to digest in detail tonight. I think I understand what you're suggesting...what's in the boiler is very different to group and I agree. Like the thread, I do find if it's hot in the group then it's probably too hot already in the shot. What I don't know, which is your point I think, is whether pulling a few flushes heat up the group sufficiently to the desired temp. The difference here though is I pull a 'few' short flushes, not a single 5sec flush. Not sure if that changes things. The thread seems to suggest shot 2 is optimum since shot 1 sufficiently 'warms up' the group. Hmm...I will need to take note and see if this new info bears fruit in my pulls.

I did read somewhere it a better way to heat up the group by pulling a shot using stale beans to 'naturally' warm up the group rather than pulling blank shots which is likely to overheat the group. Anyone try/prefer this?

@RayJohns - I have pulled shots (from cold) and compared the first cups in the following manner 1) full boil/auto turn off; 2) when i hear water boiling and some steam starting to come out of the milk valve (open); 3) my 'cold' 90'C way. I think your suggestion is no 2 but without a PID i'll need some 'indicator' of temp greater than 90'C (if i put the top cap back on). My trial and error way seemed to favour 3 but it could be variances in my routine or just human factor. Good idea measuring water coming out of group head (into a preheated cup). I will try that tomorrow and report back.

Thanks guys! This is extremely helpful suggestions.

Tried heating up the group more and boiling higher than 90'C and i think the blackcurrent in my Harrar came out more. Will keep pulling and work out some sort of 'system' and report back. But sounds like onto something here.

Out of interest, what range of brewing temperatures do people operate; what is the coolest temperature you feel suits any particular coffee you use, and what is the hottest temperature you use for a different coffee you also use?
I let my pavoni regulate the boiler pressure and temp, but i flush the brew head until it is the temperature i want - dependent upon what bean i am using.
My range is about 97C to about 102C on the metal of the brew head. That's the temp of the head before i start the brewing by letting the water in.

Some like it hot.