I am sorry to have to post this here. With Christmas and the repair work on the pavoni i have been slammed and information is getting all jangled up. I am surprised at the size of my basket i only have the one basket- the double as it is called. P(1985ish lp8) on a very fine setting i can hard tamp 12.5 grams but is too bitter, larger grinds can only take 10.5 at most with a strong tamp, and i have been having most success at about 8-10 grams with a light Tampa- still testing though. This is not what i would have referred to as a doguble before.


This is so different from my gaggia classic that I am getting myself confused. I have a few questions:

Should i just treat this double basket as a single- focusing on 7 grams to start? If I am under dosing will that mess up the basket function?

How many grams espresso should i produce with 8, 9, and 10.2 grams of coffee?

Finally, i have read a lot about double pulls recently, if i treat this as a double and cram in 12 grams, does a double on pavoni literally mean increasing the water passing through the puck by raising the lever to let more water in, or is that just a preference some people have rather than the actual definition of a double on a manual lever.

The "double" basket for the 1975-2000 group models will normally hold a bit over 14 grams. There are some baskets that are deeper that will hold close to 16 grams. One of these came with my 1978 model. Depending on the portafilter that your machine it may hold the Elektra 49mm basket. These will hold 18 grams.

The puck of pressed coffee must be deep enough or the chromatographic separation that occurs during espresso making will result in very bitter product, so one must not attempt to make espresso in without a near full load of ground coffee in the basket. It should be ground fine enough so that no liquid emerges from the portafilter until pressure is applied to the handle. It should be coarse enough so that perhaps the mass of 15 or so kg. applied to the end of the handle would result in the pull being complete in perhaps 30 seconds.

Is the coffee that you are using freshly roasted? Is it properly ground. It needs to be tamped with care and with the correct amount of pressure.

Thank you for the update i will measure for the elektra basket today and order if it fits, otherwise i will try the naked mod.

I roast myself now, though that is also a process and this last batch was the largest i ever produced and was lacking in consistency, it is also not am espresso blend- just SO malabar gold. I figured it would work well enough to practice the effect of changing grinds dose and tamp to get proper visuals timing and at least should produce a drinkable shot as they do produce a good pourover and are only four days post.

I use a stepless mdf which is messy but hopefully just up to the task. Going to drill a hole in my old gaggia basket bend it till it fits and then test boiler pressur/group temp/and at puck temp so i can get a better idea of whats happening before putting in the best beans.

I will try your tips for a while and see what it does for overall change (very different than the advice of some though!)

*edit i just measured and it appears to be 19mm deep but i will diuble check later

Consider the depth of the coffee puck and don't make it too deep just because some basket allows you to do so - you will get under extraction and worse taste. There is lots of experience with 58mm baskets and 17 grams or so is often optimal. That equates to ~12 grams in a 49mm basket (depending on how straight the walls are). Too shallow is also questionable - but your taste may vary.

My experience (confirmed by people who have done careful testing) is that tamp pressure pretty much doesn't matter - it's the water pressure that compresses the puck.

/profession ... mping.html

Here is good info on brewing ratio:

Brewing ratios for espresso beverages

Thank you very much for that link. I did try the earlier suggestion and knocked it down to 2 on my mdf and put in 12.5 grams had plenty of room could probably put in 13 with a solid tamp but not sure thats the best option. Yielded interesting results, stll not enough experimentation to draw any definitive conclusions on my end. It did produce far more cream but other conditions are not met for good drinks yet.

And thank you so much for the new links and different perspective.

My main question right now is about volume in the group for one pull. I pull up then lower enough to shut off water, mount the portafilter wait for drip or 8 seconds whichever comes first and pull straight through once.

Going to chop my portafilter in the next day or two and test water temp.

One area i am confused on: By definition and physical limitations of group size does a double have to be two pulls on one puck in order to get sufficient water for a double?

I think that a scale and the brew ratio link (or just your taste buds) will provide the answer. Personally, I produce espresso that weighs about twice the weight of the grounds.

day wrote: One area i am confused on: By definition and physical limitations of group size does a double have to be two pulls on one puck in order to get sufficient water for a double?

As I understand it, this will vary based upon 1) your dose (largely determined by your basket), and 2) your personal taste.

Keep in mind that I use cheapo baskets found on eBay that were listed as a Elektra, but I believe them to be generic. I dose 9-9.5g in my single basket, and average one full pull. In my double basket, it's a 16.5g dose with single pull for my piccolos, or 17-18g dose with a partial second pull (possibly what others dub a Fellini?) for my spouse's flat white.

I pull my cup if/when the shot blondes, but that only happens when I've ground coarser than intended or if making a near full second pull. Hope that makes sense.

A normal espresso brewratio is 50%
so the weight of the grind has to be 50% of what ends up in the cup

examble
12 grams in the basket should give 24 gram in the cup

BUT , must people like a bit higher ratio on the lever machines
Like 12 gram in the basket , and 18- 20 gram in the cup

And that should be easy enough using the Pavoni and only one pull


But you say your roast tastes good as pourover
that would most likely mean its not good for espresso , its roasted to light
and being a Malabar , it is also way too fresh ,even a non Malabar is to fresh at day 4

The bitter taste can come from many things ,one is to fresh, to much co2 in the brew
or over extracted /to low a brew ratio , the last water did get out the bad taste
or to hot (true bitter)
or to cold ,= so sour that it seams bitter