The Arrarex Caravel - Page 11

by **CriticalTodd** on Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:40 pm

Thanks, Hal. More things to try! :mrgreen:

by **hperry** on Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:13 pm

peacecup wrote:to calrify,

I'm only doing repeated lifts of the lever during a "Fellini" pre-infusion. i don't use a second pull on the Caravel, although I tried it once and it wasn't as bad as I thought. I may experiment with it again.

Hal, I've never had any success with any machine and a no-tamp. I should probably give it another try, but I always seem to end up with faster blonding that way. With the Caravel, I was getting early blonding (before the lever got to the bottom) as long as I did not really fill the basket. With the basket totally full, I can take two pre-infusion pulls (very few or no drips during these), and the third pull all the way to the bottom with no blonding.

I don't quite get "red", but I'm putting on as much force as is comfortable.

I should probably note here that I'm using commercially-roasted beans from Italy, roast date unknown. The Italians much be great blenders and roasters, because even with old beans I still get good espresso.

Even when I have fresh beans, however, I still seem to get the best results with the full basket.

PC

I don't "get" the Fellini move with the Caravel or Peppina. I do pump up and down in the "no resistance" zone until there is resistance almost to the top of the lever arc - then just a straight pull. If letting it stop "gurgling" is preinfusion we're both doing that. I preinfuse on the Termozona, but don't on the small machines.

There's an interesting discussion in the translated manual for the Caravel on the OrphanEspresso site of the amount of pressure to use. Wish I could find it but it argues for a "just right" approach. Hard to describe something you feel - but I want resistance but not to stand on it.

I am suggesting an overfilled basket, leveled, filled and tamped lightly - not no tamp at all, actually more leveling than tamping. Something like Joe does when he makes an espresso. The light tamp is really counter intuitive. It seems to work best on levers - both commercial and the smaller guys. I "hard tamp" on the Dalla Corte to keep the coffee "down." It really doesn't like over dosing at all. With the lighter tamp I haven't had difficulty with blonding, but I don't think I'm doing the preinfusion that you are either.

by **hbuchtel** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:44 am

Hello fellow Caravelites,

I got this message from Matteogd on youtube-

Matteo wrote:"Hi Henry,
My grandfather's name is Atos Beltrami: he was the entrepreneur who started VAM and Arrarex and a true coffee lover. He designed the features of the machine with Dr. Salati, and his brother . My grandmother still recalls the endless trials and discussion that were made in the apartment in Milan where I grew up. (although I believe the firm was incorporated in Correggio, near Reggio Emila, which is my grandfather's native city)
I'm going to see my grandma on Christmas, is there anything that you would like to know?"

Cool, huh?

Any questions for Matteo?

by **missionhb** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:30 am

Hi Henry,
Certainly "Nonna" has kept photos of all this....could it be her "nipote" do a few scans and shares them with us?
Best,
F

by **peacecup** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:22 am

I have so many questions....

Top of the list, though, is why the very small PF basket diameter (i.e. narrower and deeper than a 58mm) Was this related to extraction efficiency, or simply mechanical reasons (save materials, easier to make). It seems to be so much easier to properly extract 14g of espresso.

by **hperry** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:04 am

hbuchtel wrote:Hello fellow Caravelites,

I got this message from Matteogd on youtube-

Cool, huh?

Any questions for Matteo?

What a great opportunity. Would be interesting to know if they ever considered a steaming option. I'd sure like to see this product in production again. It's pretty special

by **danno** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:28 pm

peacecup wrote:Top of the list, though, is why the very small PF basket diameter (i.e. narrower and deeper than a 58mm)

I asked the same question when I visited the Olympia factory a few years ago. The answer was that 49mm and the given basket depths were the best compromize given the length of lever travel, group head size, and boiler pressure. I think there are fairly limited dynamics with lever machines' portafilter/baskets when compared to pump machines that can compensate for many factors. Markus explained that, to make a larger portafilter and basket, the group would have to so large as to be unsightly and lever travel would be longer than practical. One would assume that Sr. (Ing.?) Beltrami was working with the same constraints. Still, it would be fascinating to learn about the process of how they came up with the solution they got.

by **hbuchtel** on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:41 am

Nice, I forwarded the questions/comments to Matteo, and added a few of my own (about the 'square' Caravel, the various logos, etc).

Hopefully his Grandmother is interested in talking about it!

Regards, Henry

by **peacecup** on Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:12 am

One would assume that Sr. (Ing.?) Beltrami was working with the same constraints

The machines are actually quite different in terms of how they manage temperature, and this could have led to very different theories as to how to design baskets, dose size etc. The Caravel doesn't have a "group" head, because there is not need to dissipate heat. The 49-mm group is standard to Pavoni and Cremina (I think the Cremina was probably modeled largely after the Pavoni, then give a case like the common "family" spring levers). Some groups were designed narrower (45 mm, 43) and others larger. I think if Pavoni had wanted the 58 mm group they could have designed one. The Gaggia Achille has one, but it does work on different principles. Well, that is the question, practical constraints or extraction efficiency.

I've often wondered if the small size is a home-scale adaptation of the larger commercial size, visa-verse, or neither. I suppose the Caravel basket is small so that the machine could be made small enough to sit on a counter, same as the Cremina.

The lack of a steamer notwithstanding, the basic design idea of the Caravel is far superior to that of the Cremina (which is really just a nice Pavoni with a case). The Caravel never overheats, it can be refilled at any time, and even filled with hot water if desired. The piston is a breeze to clean and reseal - its designed that way. Anyone giving a little thought to it could now develop a prototype based on this design and make a home lever machine wholly superior to anything currently available. Think Caravel and a little steamer next to each other in a metal box.

PC

by **orphanespresso** on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:00 am

Ho boy Peacecup....did you move all the way accross two oceans to find the moxie to say that a Cremina is a Pavoni with a fancy case?!!!! Well geez, without the case it does look a lot like a La Pavoni now that you mention it. But really the Olympia Cremina is total Bahaus design, La Pavoni mid century Italian Industrial and the Caravel is to make espresso "como la caffe". The design to me defies categorization and part of our curiosity is the small size of the pf as you mention and if there was a deliberate design to the physics of the machine or was it simply scaled to fit the counter. We fiddle with a lot of machines (including of late your beloved Export) but more or less find that the Caravel produces a shot that generally defines espresso...this is not magic but a repeatable extraction, and one wonders if the designer/inventors made numerous prototypes of the machine before they settled on the extant format.
Pavoni with a fancy case...precious description.....almost notorious. Made my day.

by **peacecup** on Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:41 pm

A little nefarious perhaps... But really, I suppose those old Pavoni-type Olympias were the starting point. Look at the facts: 49-mm manual lever group, direct connection to the boiler. Add a better p-stat, finer tolerances, and a case, and voila. That is in no way to belittle the precision or beauty of the design, but the basic mechanism is exactly the same, and if one wants more than two or three espressos they get too hot. The Ponte Vecchio tall, slim, 45-mm group is much less prone to overheat (i.e. better heat dissipation). Why didn't Olympia at least detach the group from the boiler and attach it to the case? Pavoni did it (club) and the Olympia spring lever does as well. Why not the manual? Well, it could just be Cremina envy...

PC

by **IMAWriter** on Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:31 pm

Boy, Jack!....this close to Christmas, and you get my blood boiling! :lol:

OK....20 seconds OT rant...
Having owned both a 51mm Pavoni Millennium and my present Oly Cremina, I can CATEGORICALLY say they are NOT similar in more respects then you might think. Sure, some specs might be similar (older Pavoni's 49mm/Cremina 49mm, group attached, etc...) BUT....
My Cremina does not overheat nearly as fast as did the Pavoni (even the new one which had a mod to alleviate overheating somewhat). It steams about a million times better than did the La Pavoni (it's impossible NOT to get wonderful micro foam). Still, I had some wonderful shots with the La Pavoni.
Back to the Caravel. Once I got into the vibe, I really enjoyed my time with Doug's almost working correctly Caravel. If I had owned the scoop thing he sells, it would have been much easier to get the coffee into that tiny basket.
This thing
http://www.home-barista.com/levers/from-hand-grinder-to-basket-made-neat-easy-t8073.html

Boy, every time I read this thread, I get the urge to have a Caravel on my counter top.

Can someone PM me on how to grab a URL from "Search" and name it, as opposed to the whole string. Sorry for the ugly link.

by **hperry** on Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:37 pm

IMAWriter wrote:Having owned both a 51mm Pavoni Millennium and my present Oly Cremina, I can CATEGORICALLY say they are NOT similar in more respects then you might think.
Boy, every time I read this thread, I get the urge to have a Caravel on my counter top.

Have to say that my experience parallels Jack's here. I (briefly) owned an Olympia 67 made in 1992 - as close to new and pefect as it was possible to get. Shot 1..too cold. Shots 2 and 3 within the range for good coffee. 4 and beyond..burned. Beautifully made, a real jewel. But for a great shot the Caravel is a hands down winner. A couple of months was enough for me and I sold it. I love the craftsmanship but think it's overated.

by **wildbwilson** on Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:59 pm

I know this is out of context as I have not read through the whole thread and is in response to the cremina ain't all that good chitter chatter, but just this morning my 92" Cremina delivered to me the most outrageously fantastic shot, dense with not as much clarity as my cimbali Jr produces, but man o man what a shot- what a way to start Saturday. I only wish a coffee bar in town could deliver the goods as such (I'm not out in the sticks neither- I live 5 minutes away from 49th parallel which some people think of as the be all end all here in town). I may be sounding like a homer but there's a good reason Olympia produce the maximatic - if you want to make shots, sun up to sun down, it can be done. Personally I've got both - actually a Pasquini Livietta with the larger group head and what a pair they make. Heaven, I'm in heaven..
regards, Ian

by **peacecup** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:58 am

I didn't mean to boil any blood, and I don't mean to say the Caravel produces better espresso. I meant to say that the functional design of the LP and Cremina are very similar. Pressurized boiler, manual lever, direct connection between the two. All of us pressurized home-lever users have to own up to the limitations of this design, and there are three basic types. Direct-connect spring and manual, and the family or club style indirect, which, save for one post of a La Pavoni Club, I have only seen once in a manual lever.

The open boiler sacrifices steaming, but precise temperature control and complete repeatability are as simple as dropping an Ikea meat thermometer in the kettle.

The Caravel has a list of other great design features, like the removable piston, horizontal lever handle, and in particular the heating element OUTSIDE the kettle. The stainless boiler is also nice, as evidenced by the fact that Olympia added this in 2002.

by **timo888** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:12 am

orphanespresso wrote:... part of our curiosity is the small size of the pf as you mention and if there was a deliberate design to the physics of the machine or was it simply scaled to fit the counter. .

The two explanations (scale of kitchen counter, physics of brew pressure) are not mutually exclusive and both probably figured into the design.

Shot volume is a function of piston cylinder volume (height and diameter).
The piston cylinder height (piston travel) determines the arc of the lever.
Domestic kitchen counter space in Europe in the 1950s placed constraints upon lever length.
Brew pressure is a function of piston cylinder diameter, physical limits of the elastomer seals, and (ergonomically) of lever length (mechanical advantage); the narrower the basket the easier it is to attain higher target brew pressure range (p = force divided by surface area). Also have to factor in loss of pressure from outflow through the filter.

Ergo,

Given the practical kitchen-limits on lever length, and the desired brew pressure target range, basket size had to shrink.

A modern domestic lever with a 58mm basket presumes an open kitchen counter or greater clearance between counter and cabinets above than was typical in the '50s....or in the case of vintage spring levers with large diameter baskets, significantly lower brew pressure.

Regards
T

P.S. The jury is still out, so to speak, on whether its longer lever, 58mm basket, and modern 9bar+ target brew pressure range together place more demands on the Gaggia Achille than its frame can sustain over prolonged use. The machine flexes. In this light, the Cremina is more than a Pavoni in a box.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:34 pm

"peacecup said "I didn't mean to boil any blood"
[snipped]
hahaha...no blood boiled here, Jack!
Even after many months, I'm still trying to get the temperature right on my cold wet towel to allow me that 4th shot :lol:

The Caravel rocks in that regard....I loved the ability to get water to 205f, dump it in to a warmed boiler, grind, lock in, and pull a shot at EXACTLY 201F. At the time, my only problem was that my temporary "tamper"...a vitamin bottle top, was wildly inconsistent, even with a fine grind and light tamp. If I ever get a Caravel for home, I would definitely get Richard Penny to make me the proper base for my Penny tamper I own for my Cremina.

by **EspressoFrivolity** on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:43 pm

Greetings all. I am new to Home-Barista.com and the making of espresso. After a lot of digging around and research, I decided I would like to try a Caravel for my first espresso machine. I'm sure the folks who frequent this forum topic will approve

As I write this, I am aware that Orphan Espresso has a very nice Caravel available for sale. However, I sort of like the idea of rescuing, restoring, and refurbishing an eBay Caravel - such tinkering is such fun. Do any of you have any suggestions about these two alternatives? Does anybody know of any such available machines? I lost the last eBay bidding war - didn't want to bid so much on a machine about which so little was known.

Finally, while I am patiently waiting upon my Caravel, I thought I might while away the time by starting a Wikipedia article about the Caravel espresso machine. I know there are a lot of people in this forum with far more expertise than I have with the Caravel. How many of you would be willing to contribute some of that expertise to a comprehensive and thorough Wikipedia article? It could be very useful for Caravel owners and Caravel curious to have a single source that distills the knowledge and wisdom of the Home-Barista.com webforum.

Please respond with your thoughts on the Caravel Wikipedia project. If this project gets support from the group, I'll go ahead and post up a rough draft I have prepared and open it up for editing and revision.

Thanks,
EspressoFrivolity

by **aaronmaestri** on Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:25 pm

I just received my Caravel, just in time for christmas. It is the older Type 1 kind with the double seals on the piston. I have ordered a set of new seals from Orphan espresso and am waiting for them to arrive so I can rebuild the group. I have tried to make a couple of shots, but the worn seals make it difficult to get pressure in the PF. I got some reasonable crema and a very nice tasting shot, but I know I can do a lot better once it has been restored. I managed to get mine for a great price on Ebay - 45 euros, plus about the same to ship it to Australia. Thanks for all the info, it was a couple of threads on this website that convinced me to get a Caravel.
Here are a couple of pictures.

by **hperry** on Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:58 pm

Welcome to the land of Caravel. You are in for a treat.


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