Thanks, Hal. More things to try!

peacecup wrote:to calrify,

I'm only doing repeated lifts of the lever during a "Fellini" pre-infusion. i don't use a second pull on the Caravel, although I tried it once and it wasn't as bad as I thought. I may experiment with it again.

Hal, I've never had any success with any machine and a no-tamp. I should probably give it another try, but I always seem to end up with faster blonding that way. With the Caravel, I was getting early blonding (before the lever got to the bottom) as long as I did not really fill the basket. With the basket totally full, I can take two pre-infusion pulls (very few or no drips during these), and the third pull all the way to the bottom with no blonding.

I don't quite get "red", but I'm putting on as much force as is comfortable.

I should probably note here that I'm using commercially-roasted beans from Italy, roast date unknown. The Italians much be great blenders and roasters, because even with old beans I still get good espresso.

Even when I have fresh beans, however, I still seem to get the best results with the full basket.

PC

I don't "get" the Fellini move with the Caravel or Peppina. I do pump up and down in the "no resistance" zone until there is resistance almost to the top of the lever arc - then just a straight pull. If letting it stop "gurgling" is preinfusion we're both doing that. I preinfuse on the Termozona, but don't on the small machines.

There's an interesting discussion in the translated manual for the Caravel on the OrphanEspresso site of the amount of pressure to use. Wish I could find it but it argues for a "just right" approach. Hard to describe something you feel - but I want resistance but not to stand on it.

I am suggesting an overfilled basket, leveled, filled and tamped lightly - not no tamp at all, actually more leveling than tamping. Something like Joe does when he makes an espresso. The light tamp is really counter intuitive. It seems to work best on levers - both commercial and the smaller guys. I "hard tamp" on the Dalla Corte to keep the coffee "down." It really doesn't like over dosing at all. With the lighter tamp I haven't had difficulty with blonding, but I don't think I'm doing the preinfusion that you are either.

Hello fellow Caravelites,

I got this message from Matteogd on youtube-

Matteo wrote:"Hi Henry,
My grandfather's name is Atos Beltrami: he was the entrepreneur who started VAM and Arrarex and a true coffee lover. He designed the features of the machine with Dr. Salati, and his brother . My grandmother still recalls the endless trials and discussion that were made in the apartment in Milan where I grew up. (although I believe the firm was incorporated in Correggio, near Reggio Emila, which is my grandfather's native city)
I'm going to see my grandma on Christmas, is there anything that you would like to know?"

Cool, huh?

Any questions for Matteo?

Hi Henry,
Certainly "Nonna" has kept photos of all this....could it be her "nipote" do a few scans and shares them with us?
Best,
F

I have so many questions....

Top of the list, though, is why the very small PF basket diameter (i.e. narrower and deeper than a 58mm) Was this related to extraction efficiency, or simply mechanical reasons (save materials, easier to make). It seems to be so much easier to properly extract 14g of espresso.

hbuchtel wrote:Hello fellow Caravelites,

I got this message from Matteogd on youtube-



Cool, huh?

Any questions for Matteo?

What a great opportunity. Would be interesting to know if they ever considered a steaming option. I'd sure like to see this product in production again. It's pretty special

peacecup wrote:Top of the list, though, is why the very small PF basket diameter (i.e. narrower and deeper than a 58mm)

I asked the same question when I visited the Olympia factory a few years ago. The answer was that 49mm and the given basket depths were the best compromize given the length of lever travel, group head size, and boiler pressure. I think there are fairly limited dynamics with lever machines' portafilter/baskets when compared to pump machines that can compensate for many factors. Markus explained that, to make a larger portafilter and basket, the group would have to so large as to be unsightly and lever travel would be longer than practical. One would assume that Sr. (Ing.?) Beltrami was working with the same constraints. Still, it would be fascinating to learn about the process of how they came up with the solution they got.

Nice, I forwarded the questions/comments to Matteo, and added a few of my own (about the 'square' Caravel, the various logos, etc).

Hopefully his Grandmother is interested in talking about it!

Regards, Henry

One would assume that Sr. (Ing.?) Beltrami was working with the same constraints

The machines are actually quite different in terms of how they manage temperature, and this could have led to very different theories as to how to design baskets, dose size etc. The Caravel doesn't have a "group" head, because there is not need to dissipate heat. The 49-mm group is standard to Pavoni and Cremina (I think the Cremina was probably modeled largely after the Pavoni, then give a case like the common "family" spring levers). Some groups were designed narrower (45 mm, 43) and others larger. I think if Pavoni had wanted the 58 mm group they could have designed one. The Gaggia Achille has one, but it does work on different principles. Well, that is the question, practical constraints or extraction efficiency.

I've often wondered if the small size is a home-scale adaptation of the larger commercial size, visa-verse, or neither. I suppose the Caravel basket is small so that the machine could be made small enough to sit on a counter, same as the Cremina.

The lack of a steamer notwithstanding, the basic design idea of the Caravel is far superior to that of the Cremina (which is really just a nice Pavoni with a case). The Caravel never overheats, it can be refilled at any time, and even filled with hot water if desired. The piston is a breeze to clean and reseal - its designed that way. Anyone giving a little thought to it could now develop a prototype based on this design and make a home lever machine wholly superior to anything currently available. Think Caravel and a little steamer next to each other in a metal box.

PC