Any updates to any PID enabled lever espresso machines?

#1: Post by **dingo1799** » March 2nd, 2014, 11:16 pm

So, I'm about to become the new owner of not one, but 2 pre-millennium LP pro's. One chrome, and one copper/brass. Both are supposedly in operating shape, however both need plenty of TLC. Just wondering if anyone has PID'd their machines lately, I'm wanting to bug you about this and that and just get a general feel to see if a PID'd LP is really what I want or can comfortably afford

#2: Post by **drgary** » March 3rd, 2014, 12:36 am

I don't think a PID is necessary or even helpful on a La Pavoni or a Cremina. To fine tune shots on those the focus is on group temperature and this can be very well controlled by idling the boiler pressure a touch low, maybe 0.85 bar, and using half pumps to introduce steam into the group without introducing water into the coffee. See these posts for my particular approach to that. YMMV.

Adding Thermometry to a La Pavoni Europiccola This gives you more fine-tuning than temperature strips.

Dalton's law (And problems from it) This tells you how to release pockets of air that register as pressure and may keep your machine from coming up to temperature.

Olympia Cremina Temperature Study, Part 1

La Pavoni Millennium Owners, Are Temperature Problems Solved?

On machines where boiler temperature more completely controls shot temperature I like PIDs as much for ease of adjustment as for achieving the right temperature. Often a PSTAT is inside a machine's base, so you can't adjust it easily. Or it's not well calibrated so just a little turn won't get quite the boiler temperature you want. That's my preference for an MCAL or my commercial lever. That doesn't mean you can't tune those with the PSTAT but I like to pull different coffees in the same session. I also liked the PID for this reason on my E61 SBDU (single boiler dual use) pump machine. On my HX pump machine where temperature is adjusted with cooling flushes I don't find PID necessary either.

March 3rd, 2014, 4:21 am

Thanks for the reply. I just happened to look at the first thread you pointed me to and glanced across it, I'm not sure I'd like a thermometer hanging off or rigged onto a machine, that's just the way I am.
But, when I get home from work I'm definitely doing some reading. Thanks again for giving me some direction to start!

#4: Post by **jfrescki** » March 3rd, 2014, 8:17 am

If they're pre-millenium, do they even have a p-stat? ie are they two-switch models?

#5: Post by **WSH** » March 3rd, 2014, 9:12 am

and using half pumps to introduce steam into the boiler without introducing water into the coffee.

For clarity, I think you meant to say "group" and not "boiler".

March 3rd, 2014, 9:17 am

Umm.. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the professionals had a single green rocker switch, and the euros had power/off and a I/II switch. I just looked at the pics I got again, and answered my own ponderment. Can't say for sure about the chrome one, but the brass/copper one has a red switch, and below it is a green switch, like the euros,

#7: Post by **jfrescki** » March 3rd, 2014, 9:34 am

Sorry, I thought I read EPs. I think the green is a light, not a switch. The Euros have a white I/II toggle.

#8: Post by **drgary** » March 3rd, 2014, 9:47 am

dingo1799 wrote:Thanks for the reply. I just happened to look at the first thread you pointed me to and glanced across it, I'm not sure I'd like a thermometer hanging off or rigged onto a machine, that's just the way I am.
But, when I get home from work I'm definitely doing some reading. Thanks again for giving me some direction to start!

A group thermometer doesn't have to be permanent but can help you dial it in. I've done that pretty simply by attaching an o-ring around the group bell and having that hold down a temperature probe connected to an external thermometer. Also there are ugly thermometer attachments like my first one and nicer installations. It would be great if someone produced a kit like the erics thermometer for E61 groups.

WSH wrote:For clarity, I think you meant to say "group" and not "boiler".

Thanks. I fixed that.

March 3rd, 2014, 9:52 am

Everyone thats blissfully ignorant about espresso has the same comments about these when they see the pics... "Why in the $!?& do you want those pieces of }%^#?? You starting a junkyard?

I see a whole new world of espresso opening up...

#10: Post by **drgary** » March 3rd, 2014, 10:53 am

That's a fun project. You've got a Millennium group on your orange machine and a pre-Millennium group on the copper one. Either or both may have plastic pistons that people generally replace because they can deform over time and start unscrewing. Both have PSTATs. With the brass one you may have to live with some patina.Robert Pavlis "rpavlis" has written about various brass appearing ones. Some are solid brass. Others are a thin brass plate over chrome over a brass boiler done for curb appeal and mass manufacture, I guess.