I've been trying to dial in Farmers Collective from Social on my La Pavoni Europiccola...where I am now I'm dosing 14g solid and getting a 28g shot with a 5 second pre-infusion and one lever pull. It tastes ok...but its a bit harsh and I know from brewing it as french press that this coffee has the potential to be a lot sweeter...

Anyway it's been suggested to me that a bit lower of a brew ratio is better with this coffee...1.55 or that I should be getting 22g from my 14g dose...but I'm not sure what is the best way to go about getting this ratio?

Should I just pull the cup when my shot reaches 22g?

Should I try grinding finer to reduce the flow?

Should I grind finer and dose lower like Jim's adjusting by taste guide suggests I should do to increase sweetness and just go with whatever brew ratio that gives me?

Is there something else you lever heads would suggest?

entropyembrace wrote:I've been trying to dial in Farmers Collective from Social on my La Pavoni Europiccola...where I am now I'm dosing 14g solid and getting a 28g shot with a 5 second pre-infusion and one lever pull. It tastes ok...but its a bit harsh and I know from brewing it as french press that this coffee has the potential to be a lot sweeter...

Anyway it's been suggested to me that a bit lower of a brew ratio is better with this coffee...1.55 or that I should be getting 22g from my 14g dose...but I'm not sure what is the best way to go about getting this ratio?

Should I just pull the cup when my shot reaches 22g?

Should I try grinding finer to reduce the flow?

Should I grind finer and dose lower like Jim's adjusting by taste guide suggests I should do to increase sweetness and just go with whatever brew ratio that gives me?

Is there something else you lever heads would suggest?

14 grams is what you would normally use for a double shot (i.e. 60 grams of espresso in the cup). If you are only pulling 29 grams (i.e. a single shot), then your dose amount should be more around 7 grams of coffee. Anything over 7 grams would be considered an up-dose.

On my La Pavoni, I use 9 grams of coffee and pull 30 grams of espresso. That's a very good ratio in my experience. I generally use a slight pre-infusion (maybe 3 to 5 seconds) and then aim for a pull of about 30 to maybe 35 seconds or so. Myself, I usually like the pull to be a little on the longer side, although shorter pulls (down in the 25 second range) are good too sometimes.

I use the Elektra single shot basket from Stefano's on my machine. It works really well (since it's necked down at the bottom) and allows you to tamp between 8.5 and 9.5 grams of coffee. As mentioned, I usually dose 9.0 grams and pull 30 grams of espresso. That seems to be the best ratio I have found recently if you want smooth tasting espresso.

Before switching to the single shot basket, I was using 12.5 grams for a single shot (30 grams of espresso), but I found the flavors were more on the harsh side and too concentrated. Even with cutting out the first part of the shot, I wasn't having much luck.

Naturally, a lot depends on how you like your espresso to taste. If you like Ristrettos, then maybe 14 grams for a single shot might work okay. Myself, I find 8 or 9 grams works nicely for a single shot, especially if you are getting a thorough extraction across the entire puck.

Ray

RayJohns wrote:On my La Pavoni, I use 9 grams of coffee and pull 30 grams of espresso.

Ray, are you making a soup? That is way too much.

To adjust brew ratio you grind finer or coarser depending on which direction you go. I usually get excellent shots using 14 grams of espresso making about 20-25 grams of espresso.

tekomino wrote:Ray, are you making a soup? That is way too much.

To adjust brew ratio you grind finer or coarser depending on which direction you go. I usually get excellent shots using 14 grams of espresso making about 20-25 grams of espresso.

My understanding is that a single shot is 30 ml of liquid (i.e. 30 grams by weight) and a double shot is 60 ml (i.e. 60 grams).

And that normal dosing is 7 grams of coffee for a single and 14 grams for a double.

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-gu...-tamp.html

That's what I base everything on over here.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Ray

I've used 12 to 14 grams of ground coffee for a single shot (1 oz), but I find it makes the flavors really sharp and intense, which is okay sometimes, but I sort of like the smoother, more mild result from using 9 grams for a single shot.

Ray

tekomino wrote:To adjust brew ratio you grind finer or coarser depending on which direction you go. I usually get excellent shots using 14 grams of espresso making about 20-25 grams of espresso.

How does adjusting the grind change the final volume in the cup? It changes the speed, but on a lever machine, when you lift the lever, 30 ml of water come into the chamber and when the lever is pushed down, that water pretty much all ends up in the cup. The only thing the grind changes for me is the duration of the extraction; it has very little impact on the final volume of espresso, which is what the brew ratio is about, no?

Ray

Well the grind will really change how much of solids you extract out of coffee. It makes huge difference on any machine. What I do on Cremina for example is use 15.5-17grams of coffee to make 20-26 grams of espresso by weight. I pull the cup when I get to desired weight. I use then grind and to some extent dose to get taste I am looking for.

Let me give you an example. This morning I pulled Water Avenue El-Toro blend on Cremina. This coffee needs much finer grind than my usuals and it also needs tight extraction to get good balance of sweet/sour. I grind fine and dose 17 grams to make 21 grams of espresso. The extraction is slow and it takes maybe 30-33 seconds. I pull the cup after I reach 21 grams.

Now you could make same 21 grams of espresso on coarser grind and you would use less pressure on lever and still pull cup at 21 grams, but taste would be completely off. It would be sour and tin. It is not same shot at all...

tekomino wrote:Well the grind will really change how much of solids you extract out of coffee. It makes huge difference on any machine. What I do on Cremina for example is use 15.5-17grams of coffee to make 20-26 grams of espresso by weight. I pull the cup when I get to desired weight. I use then grind and to some extent dose to get taste I am looking for.

Let me give you an example. This morning I pulled Water Avenue El-Toro blend on Cremina. This coffee needs much finer grind than my usuals and it also needs tight extraction to get good balance of sweet/sour. I grind fine and dose 17 grams to make 21 grams of espresso. The extraction is slow and it takes maybe 30-33 seconds. I pull the cup after I reach 21 grams.

Now you could make same 21 grams of espresso on coarser grind and you would use less pressure on lever and still pull cup at 21 grams, but taste would be completely off. It would be sour and tin. It is not same shot at all...

All good points, thanks. I'll have to play around with doing some comparisons on the same beans. Normally I use about 9 grams for a single shot (1 oz) and the results are very nice. But I will try pulling a single shot off something like 15 or 16 grams and see what the results are.

Ray

I think there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I sometimes use 17.5g in my double (51mm) basket, with a single stroke (yielding the volume of a single). Obviously this depends upon taste, roast, grind, grinder.....

What's the lowest dose anyone uses with the double 51mm basket?

uyeasound wrote:I think there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Absolutely no doubt about that. You have to adjust for your taste and coffee you are using.