My theory in most cases and areas is "great coffee"(as we think of it) ranks pretty low. I do think they want the sign to say "Great/Best Coffee" but few know what great coffee is or really care to learn. I think the main concern when it comes to the coffee is it's basically very good with no negatives. In other words they come to a Cafe to have coffee and for many other reasons. They don't really want to focus on the coffee and they also don't want to be distracted by negatives in the coffee. They may like to see pretty/fancy looking equipment and pourover bars with neon lights, Baristas with white shirts and black vest, nice latte art etc. But if you said you were serving a top 92 point coffee and instead served a 85 most would still compliment and few would yell fraud.

another_jim wrote:In Chicago, enough people go out of their way for superb coffee to make it worthwhile for a few places to make that their major selling point. It used to be 3 places, now it's up to 6.

How many of these people who go out of there way to go to a (I'll assume superb looking and proclamations?) as well as serving superb coffee really know much about the coffee?
My best local cafe(elite colleges area, Amherst college, Smith, Hampshire, Mt. Holyoke as well as Umass.) had a lb of Nekisse given to them by their roaster. I walked in and saw it on the sign listed like their normal better coffees and for the regular price. WoW what a treat! What a deal! I heard a couple comments that the coffee was nice today but that was about it.

It is unwise for any of us to assume our (limited sample size) personal experience indicates any universal lessons.

Interesting topic.

I can tell you that I go to "Third Wave" cafe's or quality focused coffee bars to focus on the coffee, but I feel I'm in the minority and that for these shops to survive they need to be able to bring in enough customers, most of which are looking for coffee that's not bad and a good social setting.

Barefoot Coffee Roasters in Santa Clara used to feature special coffees on their pour-over bar at a premium. They've done away with that, but still have good coffees, just not the special micro-lots like the Nekisse you mentioned. They also closed both their Roll-Up coffee bar which was the garage at their roastery in San Jose and their coffee bar that they had run inside the Good Karma vegan restaurant in downtown San Jose.

One of the other coffee bars I like, Red Berry Coffee Bar in San Jose is a multi-roaster shop featuring coffees from Barefoot, Ritual, Ecco, Verve, De La Paz, and Temple and they sometimes bring in guest coffees. This shop is across from City Hall and when they were sort-of on my way to work, I'd notice some people getting milk drinks on their way to work rather then enjoying the very good espresso or black coffees that they had to offer.

These shops are raising the bar on what good coffee is, but I think there's always going to be a dichotomy between the people who want a hot drink and a pick-me-up in the morning and those few who really want to savor the incredible varieties of flavors and aromas that come from specialty coffee.

When you think about it, a bar that consistently serves coffee that is "basically very good with no negatives" is hitting a pretty high (and regrettably rare) standard.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Would a shop that discourages customers who don't have the highest of high standards be a more enjoyable place to savor a cup of coffee? I doubt it. For one thing, I'd have to leave my friends and clients home. For sure it wouldn't stay in business very long.

Marshall wrote:When you think about it, a bar that consistently serves coffee that is "basically very good with no negatives" is hitting a pretty high (and regrettably rare) standard.

And maybe this should be the goal

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

I guess it's about whether or not stellar/high priced/whatever+ coffees are really recognized or truly appreciated by enough of the customers at even the best cafes to put much focus on them. Do many people out at third wave cafes talk coffee similar to what is done here? We have a bar in town that has an amazing beer list and I hear a lot of discussions about the beers when I'm in the place. Much of it is similar to the way we might talk about a coffee. But I've (in my limited experience) rarely heard such discussions in my Cafe that also offers some really special coffees. In fact the Cafe is a Whiskey bar at night and during the day I hear more comments on the nighttime Whiskey menu.

malachi wrote:It is unwise for any of us to assume our (limited sample size) personal experience indicates any universal lessons.

That's why I'm asking for more opinions and experiences.

another_jim wrote:More than I ever thought

That's good to hear and means that it may spread out from population centers

This thread is of interest to me.

The question "If you build it will they come?" seems to be a re-occurring theme in specialty business.

An analogy might be a bicycle shop, of which there are many varieties (years ago I owned one).

Family Shop = Kid bikes, paper routes (do kids still deliver papers by bike??), family recreation; i.e., reliable, utilitarian transport and diversion for those in need of such.

Pro Shop = Sport bikes for athletes and fitness types in search of tuning expertise and components to keep his/her equipment in top shape for that ultimate riding experience.

Volume Shop = Price is king. Service, expert knowledge and friendly advice may be optional, but price/selection should be excellent. Coffee side of the analogy may fall apart here unless a Starbucks-type operation is included in the range of acceptable (I've never been to Seattle or Portland).

Multi-layered service-oriented businesses can succeed and sometimes you do discover one where it all comes together nicely.

One obvious factor, location.

A home town shop on Main Street will have different customer needs (and volume of business) from the metropolitan. A destination shop in Vermont's Green Mountains or the Colorado Rockies has yet another following.

OK. - In addition to great service, can the small town "bike" shop offer a high-perf. "Pro Department" that includes all of the finest Italian (now American too) equipment/expertise for the sport, or is this simply a waste, the gear ignored, questions unasked (as described by Yakster, above)?

Enough with the analogy: - Are there enough interested and genuinely enthusiastic coffee drinkers on "Main Street USA" to justify an effort and investment there?

I am asking if a location with good qualities of visibility, access, foot traffic and demographics (i.e., a location that is capable of supporting a genuine specialty operation) can survive in the "burbs."

Again, I've never been to Seattle or Portland but would consider them out of bounds for this digression. Apologies for my naivety.

..Hey Ed, I went to UMASS and never did leave the Pioneer Valley (at least in my head).

Sometimes I think, as enthusiasts, we have to remind ourselves how hard it is to make good espresso. It's probably at least as difficult as making really good bread or pasteries, but you have to do it in house and you can't have one person whip up a big batch in the morning. To make a business out of it, it has to be good and consistent all the time. Good equipment can help with the consistency (at home and at the cafe), but I think the barista and the ownder have to be interested in coffee for it to be good. This is the stumbling block when a lot of people want to make espresso at home, there's no shortcuts, and it's true in a cafe too.

I enjoy the time I spend each morning making a couple good shots, or ordering and dialing in a new coffee. But most people would probably prefer an OK, but convienent coffee and a business owner is probably more excited about running a popular cafe than in serving the best possible espresso. There are lots of shops around that seem like they're doing everything right, they use beans from a good roaster, they've got good equipment, they have SOs and pour over bars - but the espresso is still just OK. I don't know if these cafes are 'third wave' or not, maybe it's just a case of a rising tide lifts all ships. There are a lot more places to get quality coffee these days, and the general increase in knowledge might mean that there are more cafes now serving drinkable, but not great, espresso.

But there are some truly great cafes serving great espresso out there. It's easy to spot them because they're serving almost entirely coffee (with maybe a few pasteries and/or teas too) and they're still in business. If you're going to make coffee your whole business then chances are you're pretty passionate about it, and the coffee is good enough and consistent enough to keep people coming back. Most of the good espresso I've had away from home were at places that made it their primary business to serve espresso and that's what people showed up for. On the other hand most of the time that I've had mediocre espresso I was waiting in line while people ordered bagels and chai lattes in front of me.