I'm considering a double boiler, a Rocket R58 and others. All made in Italy. Some are made for Clive, some are upgraded for Chris' etc. but I'm wondering what do Italians use in their homes. They probably are not ordering upgrades from Clive and Chris'... Do they go cheap? Are there brands and or models not available here they they prefer??? Are the same Rocket models available here available there? Do a higher percentage of homes in Italy have high end espresso machines compared to the U.S.?

The Lucca M58 is new, so new there isn't much info but it's kind of the same as one already produced with addition bells and whistles and prices. Do Italians laugh at those type of machines? Often Europeans laugh at some of the crazy and worse stuff WE Americans are gullible for.

Do Italians mostly use single boiler E61 HX's over DB's? Or do they shun expensive espresso machines altogether? What do Italians and perhaps other Europeans do?

And how does that compare with the American market?

I grew up in a very Italian neighborhood, i.e. most families were immigrants who had recently moved to the US. It was very rare to see an espresso machine in the house (and supposedly same was true back in Italy), but every house had several moka pots and they were what used throughout the day.

True espresso was something you got in a cafe and it didn't seem common at home. Not that espresso machines are that common here.

But I am sure some of the European members have more up-to-date comments in this regard.

If I may ask, would this influence a buying decision or are you just curious?

csepulv wrote: True espresso was something you got in a cafe and it didn't seem common at home. Not that espresso machines are that common here?

My Italian friends tell me they get great & inexpensive espresso on every block (a bit of an exaggeration in my experience), so machines like ours are rare in homes in Italy. Of course, they all live in or came here from major cities - but none admits to knowing anyone with a "real" machine there.

Of course, they all have them here. And they all think that $3 for an espresso at a cafe is crazy.

Having a cafe at the corner shop was a social thing as well. Besides, considering the cost of a cafe was very cheap it would have made no sense (economically speaking) for the average Italian to invest in a commercial grade espresso machine. It would have paid for itself in about 10 years plus forcing the buyer to spend time making his/her own cafe while lacking the social experience of the corner shop.

My stepmother and her family, all Italian and whose family having owned a home on the Adriatic for 600 years, had Moka Pots for the morning coffee. Then later in the day they went to the local cafe' for cappuccino and socialization.

I spent a month in her Italian home, visiting her life long friends and seeing what their routines were and the Moka Pot played a big part in their lives. They selected the beans that they wanted to use by chewing a loose bean and seeing what aftertaste it left in the mouth.

A very awakening experience!

My wife is Italian (Abbruzzo) I've not been to one household with a machine, all of these househols use Moka Pots and get their espresso while about town. They do enjoy coming to my home though

Few of my friends
have the "capsule" pods
and cupboards full of them since they get a free machine BUT they need to order certain amount of pods every month.......
moka the majority of them
and of course espresso bars in every corner and more

Chris, Want to put the crazy thought of spending a lot on an espresso machine into perspective.

Don't know how it will influence but (perhaps) everything has influence.

Initially, I just wanted to fix My 10+ year old Ascaso Dream and thought with a $400+ repair (with S & H), I'd just buy a new machine.

Thought the idea, spending $2,000 was the minimum entry fee for good espresso in the home, was crazy and thought that would never be Me. Now every day (at least a week now) I read about it, the price goes up $200. And I'm starting to feel like that's ok. But I need to buy a machine and grinder quick to keep the price below $4Grand. A $2K machine may pay for itself in 2 years, what about a $3,700 purchase?

-Wally (F1) on the forum described a Rocket Giotto that stopped performing properly and gave up on it in less than 3 years... Questions for Rocket R58 V2 owners. and is now having issues with new R58.

I need My head examined and rather than spend espresso machine money for a professional to do it, I thought I'll do a quick self examination (thus this post) and put the savings toward the machinery. -Requiring further head examination.

FotonDrv wrote: They selected the beans that they wanted to use by chewing a loose bean and seeing what aftertaste it left in the mouth.

A very awakening experience!

Chewing the bean is also used to figure out (to some degree) how recent was the roasting. With the dark roasts usual in Italy, a bean should literally explode when chewed if it's been roasted the same day.

Strictly Amateur wrote:Thought the idea, spending $2,000 was the minimum entry fee for good espresso in the home, was crazy and thought that would never be Me. Now every day (at least a week now) I read about it, the price goes up $200. And I'm starting to feel like that's ok. But I need to buy a machine and grinder quick to keep the price below $4Grand. A $2K machine may pay for itself in 2 years, what about a $3,700 purchase?

While I love this site, it can easily give the impression the only way to get good espresso is by spending a lot of money: double boiler, pressure profiling, large conical grinders, etc. But you do see a lot of discussions where someone has a more limited budget and there are ways to get good espresso much cheaper. The more convenience, consistency and aesthetic appeal and the budget can grow, but it doesn't have to.

For example, at work I have a used La Pavoni paired with a Lido 2. I had to do a bit of a restore on the Pavoni, but total cost for this setup is under $500. It isn't the most convenient and making more than 2-3 shots is a bit of a pain, but the espresso is good to me (and the co-workers who come by) and better and more consistent than what I get in most of the cafes here in SF.

At home I have a double boiler with a PID and a Vario and Pharos. The big difference, in the cup, is consistency. I can easily get the same espresso (taste, volume/weight, etc) at home. I can make adjustments in temperature easily and repeatably. The La Pavoni has more variation (mostly a result of me probably), but I get pretty good espresso, consistently. Sometimes it is better than what I get at home, sometimes not. It can be frustrating because I can't easily reproduce what I did on the La Pavoni, but that is okay.

I used to have a Silvia with a PID. I was able to get good, consistent espresso with it. A Silvia with a PID (or better valued CC1) with a Pharos or even Lido 2 can make good espresso, in my opinion. Yes, my espresso is better with my QM67, but my Silvia also made better espresso than I could get at most cafes.

As frequently noted here, the grinder is the real issue. I had a Capresso Infinity many years ago. It was like playing Russian Roulette with 4-5 bullets loaded.

Anyway, I think you can have good, enjoyable espresso without spending a lot. For many here, there is a very strong passion to continue to explore every extra bit of flavor and nuance possible. And when your tastes are accustomed to such quality, I think it can be easy to give the impression that you need the expensive equipment.