Water Water Everywhere, but is Crystal Geyser too hard for espresso?

#1: Post by **didiee** » May 14th, 2013, 8:32 am

Recently read a lot about water from HB.
Found one of the recommendation from Jim is to use crystal geyser exclusively or volvic (tad expensive) to prevent any significant scaling. However somewhere along the line that I also found that the TDS for Crystal Geyser is over 500

I couldn't believe it. Had to check for myself.

Purchased API kit KH and GH testing for my water.
KH 2 drops (range in the 30's?)
GH 3 drops (low 50's?)

I think it's actually soft enough to be really worried... but I do worry.

Bought Zerowater regardless.
my water's TDS 44

Crystal Geyser
KH 3 drops
GH 3 drops
TDS 33

There you have it.

Edit: for clarification and searchability.

#2: Post by **JohnB.** » May 14th, 2013, 10:36 am

Looking at the various bottled water reports for each plant producing Crystal Geyser the highest TDS numbers I saw were 180ppm & the lowest was 25ppm. I believe 150ppm is considered ideal taste wise for brewing coffee.

#3: Post by **another_jim** » May 14th, 2013, 2:55 pm

That advice is almost as dated as I am.

Get a TDS meter (the zerowater's is fine). For pour over machines, use your tap water (filtered if necessary) and zerowater (or distilled), in a mix that gets you around 40 to 60 TDS. That will taste decent for esoresso, and keep you from needing to descale.

Alternatively, almost everything labelled "drinking water" and sold in big jugs at the supermarket is in this range.

If you have a plumbed in machine, consider getting the Everpure Claris filters. This is a single cartridge that can be set separately for hardness and alkalinity (same tech as the zerowater cartridge, but with bypass valves you can set)

#4: Post by **JohnB.** » May 14th, 2013, 3:24 pm

another_jim wrote:That advice is almost as dated as I am.

Get a TDS meter (the zerowater's is fine). For pour over machines, use your tap water (filtered if necessary) and zerowater (or distilled), in a mix that gets you around 40 to 60 TDS. That will taste decent for esoresso, and keep you from needing to descale.

I was referring to the info here: http://scaa.org/PDF/ST%20-%20WATER%20ST ... V2009A.pdf I would think that the hardness level has more to do with whether you need to descale or not then the TDS numbers. I can avoid descaling by keeping my water in the 2-3 grains of hardness range even though the TDS never drops below 115-130ppm.

As far as the spring water you find in stores a number of them have TDS levels of 100ppm or more.

#5: Post by **another_jim** » May 14th, 2013, 4:40 pm

As a matter of information: TDS is measure of conductance of water stated in calcium carbonate equivalent units. If there is only calcium++ and carbonate-- ions, 150 mg/L TDS will equal 90 mg/L hardness and 60 mg/L alkalinity, whihc is completely neutral (i.e. roughly 5 grains hard, 3 grains alkaline).

Since TDS meters are very cheap and easy to use, and most water sources contain almost only calcium, magnesium and carbonates; it is most convenient to use these meters for softness measures. In this case 120 to 180 TDS is best for coffee, and 40 to about 75 (60 if you really never want scale) is a good range for no scale and decent coffee

The only time these TDS ranges will not translate to hardness in drinkable water is when there is sodium or potassium in the water. This happens when the water source is fom rivers close to the coast, or when the water has been softened. In this case, the TDS conversion I give above will overstate the degree of hardness, and you will still be safe from scale if you use these figures.

#6: Post by **JohnB.** » May 14th, 2013, 6:06 pm

another_jim wrote: Since TDS meters are very cheap and easy to use, and most water sources contain almost only calcium, magnesium and carbonates; it is most convenient to use these meters for softness measures. In this case 120 to 180 TDS is best for coffee, and 40 to about 75 (60 if you really never want scale) is a good range for no scale and decent coffee

The only time these TDS ranges will not translate to hardness in drinkable water is when there is sodium or potassium in the water.

Most of us that are running plumbed in machines are also running sodium based softeners if there is a hardness issue. As I posted above I can have hardness levels in the 2-3 grains range & still have TDS readings in the ideal range; the best of both worlds.

#7: Post by **another_jim** » May 14th, 2013, 8:08 pm

Cirqua makes a designer water with reduced calcium and sodium or potassium added; and they claim it is better than just water with lower calcium and no added non-scaling minerals. I think there's variation here. I found that a mix of regular and distilled water at around 60 TDS tasted equally good to softened water at 150; while some people prefer the reduced mineral water to the softened water. If you have a tank machine, it's very easy to experiment.

May 15th, 2013, 12:41 am

I'm running a Brewtus IV from a jug, that's why i'm particularly careful. Havent figure out a way to connect softener yet.

A lot of information between here and CG is dated, maybe another even longer faq for h2o is due? Certainly water hasn't change, maybe our understanding is a little more? I think the bottlewatherweb never was updated? That's why when I checked, still shows 590ppm for TDS?

My GH and KH are both less than 60, I probably shouldnt be worried; however, as I have no other way to plumb in right now, better be careful than sorry.

#9: Post by **another_jim** » May 15th, 2013, 1:26 am

The Crystal Geyser data on the water web shows their Calistoga spring water, which is very salty. The one I talked about is their Alpine spring. However, it is not widely distributed.

In any case, given Zerowater and cheap TDS meters, you can mix your own a lot more cheaply than using spring water, and you don't need to haul bottles around.

#10: Post by **JohnB.** » May 15th, 2013, 7:36 am

Another option is to install one of these softener/filter set ups:
https://www.chriscoffee.com/Water_Softe ... ftsysg.htm under your sink. Feed it to a dedicated drinking water faucet up top & use that water for your tank machines & hot water pots. The CCS price is good on the complete system but you can buy the replacement cartridges much cheaper at on-line filter sites.