I too think it unlikely. The best espresso I've probably ever had was off a Slayer, but there was no profiling used at all. Pre-infusion yes, but the shot was cut straight from 9 bar with no wind down. I attribute it largely to the skill of the roaster/blender, the grinder and to a lesser extent the barista, as much as I do the machine given its mode of use in this case.

EDIT: Just found out my favourite local roaster very recently got a 3 group Slayer here in Christchurch. Guess I'll be heading over there for a look in the next few days...

lsjms wrote:Outrageous.
Never heard of El Bulli? The Fat Duck? Harold Mcgee?

Sorry, Lawrence, but clearly -- to my mind -- you missed the point of Jim's post. What McDonald's produces demands technology, so that any 17-year old anywhere in the world can make the exact same French fry, the exact same burger, etc., etc., etc. That demands technology; that demands invention.

In contrast, what Ferran Adrià, Heston Blumenthal, Thomas Keller, and others do with a knife is artistry. It demands innovation, a mastery of technique, and -- to quote the old "Superman" television show of the 1950s -- "abilities far beyond those of mortal men." But it does not demand hi-tech invention on an industrial scale.

Just my 2¢ . . . or should I say "2p"?

* * * * *

roastaroma wrote:I beg you, stop the Wave business! It makes me seasick!

Clearly, Wayne, you're not a surfer!

Cheers,
Jason

as i see it...

the so called fourth wave for me is when espresso started becoming something that people make at home .. sort of like how home brewing beer became really popular.

so home brewing espresso became popular and accessible, this is the fourth incarnation of coffee preparation inspiration.

thanks for your time.

Wouldn't that make it the second wave?

I think that the likes of Adria, this and Heston are at the forefront of food technology, leading and innovating, not following or adapting. They involve themselves with chip technology, and the development of a better chip, not process tech and how to automate.

another_jim wrote: What McDonald's produces demands technology

Not so, anyone with a russet burbank and a pan of oil can produce their chip. How they produce it requires technology, not what they produce. The Fat Duck chip requires new learning, unavailable from my grandmother and a desiccator. I do not follow the logic that large complex machines constitute food technology, nor that scale has anything to do with it.
It's the Adrias that lead technology through invention, be it hi or lo tech, industry follows without an army of commis.

My thoughts on the waves are that it's meaningless twaddle run out by those in the business seeking to separate themselves from starbucks et al. Fair enough too.

Coffee forums - wave 3.5 then?

Molecular gastronomy in general doesn't CREATE technology but rather finds uses FOR it.
The creation is aimed at the end result.

Mass market food science, on the other hand, has no interest (in general) in creation or innovation on the end result - but rather in the process itself (and thus the technology).

Both innovate - but for different purposes, with different goals and with different outcomes / creations.

Clearly, Lawrence, we disagree, but this is a discussion for a site like Chowhound than Home Barista.

lsjms wrote:I think that the likes of Adria, this and Heston are at the forefront of food technology, leading and innovating, not following or adapting. They involve themselves with chip technology, and the development of a better chip, not process tech and how to automate.

Like all erudite binary oppositions; process technology:BAD::product technology:GOOD makes for a nice intellectual sound byte but also for a seriously messed up appreciation of history. Even if aided by all the chemists of his day, not Escoffier, and probably not even Point, could have come up with Adria's concoctions. The technology he uses is industrial chemistry, developed by countless engineers in countless plants, all pursuing LSD (that is, pounds, shillings and pence, in the words of my old chem teacher).

But this is not just true of today, the craftsmanship of every age uses any and all technology it finds useful, regardless of source; and their innovations add to the common stock. But the essence of craftsmanship is always to produce the highest quality by any means necessary; whereas the essence of mass production is to save money by substituting technology for labor and skill. So mass production will always be more technology intensive.

Herve and Adria are to be highly commended for meeting the prejudices of foodies head on and using techniques that derive from food processing. I'm thankful to them for doing it, and more than just because this makes for some very cool new foods. It also shocked me, and was a big factor in forcing me to fundamentally rethink my similarly naive assumptions about how craftsmanship and technology interact. I think you actually do them a disservice, and belie the core of their innovation, by implying their work somehow derives from the prior tradition of grand cuisine.

Excellent discussion, but to reiterate what I've said before, 'Third Wave' is a neat bow to wrap up the general leaning in the coffee industry toward responsible sourcing of higher quality coffees to make them available in a higher quality preparation environment by knowledgeable and skilled baristi, as opposed to whomever is not actively busy at the moment making the coffee.
Say what you will about coffee and its movements, or phases, or growth spurts, and argue ad infinitum what is and what is not included, what constitutes the next whatever, but arguing that you dislike the term is kinda defeating the purpose. Accurate or not, like it or not, it is a common term used to quickly and fairly succinctly describe a whole lot of details in a two-word phrase.
Unless there is something else out there as neat and sort?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?

Food being grown in the new small farm movement is demanding an intense amount of new technology. It's just different than industrial ag. It's smart farming of food instead of the power ag. It's much easier to spread fertilizer than it is figure out how to manage the soil with minimal inputs to naturally create it.