RegulatorJohnson wrote:what are they going to do? ....

put a reg barber in every box?

Uh, yes? The tampers included are ludicrous. For the money these machines cost, and because one needs a good tamper for the machines to work properly, at least a $20 stainless tamper should be included.

Wow. I'll bet none of these machine manufacturers have any idea of the level of hardship they've caused through their callous disregard for "the little things."

espressoed wrote:Wow. I'll bet none of these machine manufacturers have any idea of the level of hardship they've caused through their callous disregard for "the little things."

The fact is that not everyone who buys a Silvia is as knowledgeable, well-read, nor as well educated in the ways of espresso as the members of this forum. I have answered more than a few messages from people who are using a Silvia and cannot get a decent pull, only to find out that they are using the tamper that was included with Silvia. It is reasonable for those people to assume that the tamper, included with such an expensive machine, was designed to work with their machine.

The instructions should state: "The tamper included in this box will cause the user many frustrating sessions trying to create good espresso. Continued use will cause you to place the machine in the garage and never use it again. For drinkable results we recommend purchasing a tamper that is the correct size for this machine."

The tamper should have a label on it: "Do not use tool. Discard immediately."

kahvedelisi wrote:Rancilio company is the only one doing this OR there are other well known italian espresso machine producers giving exact same plastic scoop/tamper. Lets think again... While thinking... did it ever occur to you almost all italian grinders with tamper attachment have the same "problem".

"BUT MOM! Everyone else is doing it! WHY CAN'T I?"
Two [or more] wrongs make a right, now?

I still believe it's not machine producer's job to include tampers.

No one said it is their responsibility to do so, but why bother to include one that doesn't work properly?

If you were to buy a ferrari or a porsche or a lamborghini, be assured they won't come with a full tank and/or 4 extra tire

At least the tires ARE THE CORRECT SIZE!

Either include a proper sized tamper or do not include one at all. How difficult is that to understand?
It doesn't have to be a $20 or $30 tamper. A $4.50 piece of plastic OF THE CORRECT DIAMETER would be more than sufficient.

I don't agree with the argument, "if you're paying 600 dollars for a machine they should put a Reg Barber tamper in the box".. after all the machine costs 600 dollars because they use expensive materials and intellectual property to make that machine.. it is a 600 dollar machine, and it should come with what it comes with.. If it was a 650 dollar machine than it ought to come with a reg... but you get my drift.

I do agree, though, that the tamper it comes with (and the double basket for that matter) is ridiculous. It does give a person with no idea how to use the machine the idea that that would be a suitable item for operating an espresso machine..

The flip side of that argument, though, is that you can pull a great shot with the fake plastic tamper. It isn't impossible to use that or the spring loaded unit on the front of a grinder to make a good shot of espresso..

to no contradict myself anymore I will stop with the conclusion that rancilio should really fabricate a plastic tamper that is at least 58 mm in diameter and bigger (much like the LM plastic tamper) to include with their espresso machines.. AFAIK it would not break the bank, and would be a decent, usable item comparable to the machine the user is getting. 4000 dollar machines should really be sold with aluminum tampers that fit their respective baskets and so on.. It's worth charging them extra so that I never have to go to a coffee shop where they have a legitimate excuse that they didn't know you were supposed to tamp ever again.

Randy G. wrote:A $4.50 piece of plastic OF THE CORRECT DIAMETER would be more than sufficient.

end of argument.

"correct diameter" according to who? Obviously italians prefer smaller sizes when it comes to tampers. Higher quality ones? Well I'm using €40 worth official rancilio tamper and it's 57mm diameter, I have to do either SNWE or knock really hard if I want to push down all particles. Btw right me if I'm wrong, all "correct sized" tampers are production of other countries (such as usa, denmark, australia, canada etc)

you all argue about the included tamper's size plus quality and miss the whole point. The point is while we're trying to push, push, push down the annoying coffee particles with correct sized, well built tampers here, italians don't care about theirs there... which reminds me of other countries brewing coffee turkish style and thinking the right practice is "boiling coffee several times" and they do it for no good reason at all.

PS. About tires --> I had a friend who owned a peugeot 205 and an Alfa Romeo, he had changed all 4 tires including steering wheel for better performance.. that's called.. umm.. modification???

kahvedelisi wrote:"correct diameter" according to who? Obviously italians prefer smaller sizes when it comes to tampers.

So what?

BY FAR, the greatest sales Rancilio enjoys for Silvia is in the US. It would then make sense for them to include a tamper for the US market that is in tune with what that market seems to prefer.. a tamper that is a correct match for the portafilter basket in which it will be used, even if it is based on their "wrong" opinion! Why don't you call 5 manufacturers of tampers. Tell them you have a stock Rancilio Silvia with the included portafilters and baskets that came with the machine. Tell them that you don't know the real size. Ask them what size you should order.

Have you even looked at the stupid plastic thing Rancilio calls a tamper that is included with Silvia? Have you measured it? Have you used it? It is so undersized that it is not even close. 57mm would be a preferred size since the Italians cannot seem to make portafilter baskets within reasonable tolerance ranges. The baskets vary quite a bit- enough that a 58mm tamper would not fit in quite a good percentage of them.

Now, the Silvia tamper is not only WAY undersized but the bottom is convex. it will tamp the center of the coffee and then push the coffee out and up the sides of the basket becasue of the large amount of clearance between the tamper and the sides of the basket. Outside of using a square tamper, the Rancilio inclusion is perfect if you enjoy channeling.

Beyond that, I believe that Ferraris still come with tires that are of the proper DIAMETER for the rims on which they fit. Too bad Rancilio cannot pick up on that.

I find your arguments fairly weak. Let me ask you, then- If my basket has an inside diameter of 58mm, what would be the smallest diameter tamper that would give a proper tamp (without having to tamp in circles over and over to get an even compression throughout the basket? Please base your answers with the fact in mind that this forum is a "guide to exceptional espresso." [look up there ^ ]. I would love to hear the results of your testing. Maybe Reg can chime in here was well. He knows something about tampers from what I hear.

I would think that someone like you who owns an espresso machine that sells in the US for close to $2000USD would have a better idea as to the relationship that tamping has on distribution and quality extraction. Maybe your Rancilio Epoca ST1 came with the pod adaptor and this is all moot for you?

It's been a while, but it seems that perspective has been lost along the way in the past few years, so this bears repeating. The embarrassing things (like F1 no longer hosting an American driver and me using a steamtoy on the road, I've graduated to a lever, TYVM) have been edited.

Psyd wrote:Look outside your country. Espresso is fairly new to the US, yet, here we are, stating that a tamper is a necessity just because we want one. Having travelled quite a bit, I'm still startled at how much US citizens are out of synch with the rest of the world, and how nationalist we are about it. Simple things like, the most recognised logo world wide? Manchester United. A soccer team. A British soccer team. Most Americans have never heard of them. Ask Americans what they thing the most followed sport worldwide is, and do you think they'd come up with Formula One auto racing? I'd be amazed if one out of ten people could even name one F1 driver. The plasti-crap tamper is a nod to their American consumers so that the machine can be used right out of the box by those that don't own a tamper, and those that already own a tamper don't get charged for a decent one that they don't want.
If this was an American company with an American market base, I'd think about agreeing with you. An Italian company with an international market base, it's nice thing that they included even the plastic one.

As a point of information. Today was singles day for me. Instead of vaguely waving my EPNW tamper at the basket, I vaguely waved a Rancilio plastic one. There was no detectable decline in the quality of the shot's flow or taste.

The only tamping requirement for 7 gram singles is to make sure the coffee doesn't spill while moving the PF from grinder to grouphead.