Ken Fox wrote:Equipment and its use are a lot easier to talk about, then to talk about nuances in coffee. And, talking about food or wine or coffee is nowhere near as interesting as consuming it.

But just to discuss the taste of something in a vacuum -- I'd almost rather read the phone directory.

Thank God, Ken, not everyone is like you. If they were, I wouldn't have had a job for some 20+ years writing about wines . . .

Ken Fox wrote:I would agree, however, that using bad or mediocre or stale coffee in high priced equipment is idiotic.

Amen!

Ken Fox wrote:
"I just don't recall reading very many posts by people who went out and spend lots of money on expensive gear and then fed it crap coffee. No doubt this happens, but do those people post that they are doing this on internet coffee forums? If so, I haven't read those posts."

I don't know if Malachi/Chris meant crap/Costco coffee in the most literal sense. My interpretation was that he was just continuing to stress the importance of coffee and developing skills in the face of some people's tendency to seemingly focus a disproporationate share of their investments on equipment.

Now that I have maybe presumptuously inserted myself in this between Malachi/Chris, another_Jim, Ken Fox, Marshall, IMAWriter, Pysd, etc. I just hope I haven't said anything which may lead to my being stomped.

mrmekmek wrote:I don't know if Malachi/Chris meant crap/Costco coffee in the most literal sense. My interpretation was that he was just continuing to stress the importance of coffee and developing skills in the face of some people's tendency to seemingly focus a disproporationate share of their investments on equipment.

And my point is that you can't tell where any individual's efforts are directed based upon their forum posts. Although I may post disproportionately about equipment, my real interest is in single varietal coffees that I roast for espresso and that I dose at relatively low doses (~14g). People here are sick and tired of hearing about how I dose for espresso, so I don't post on that topic very often anymore. When it comes to the single varietals, the ones that are good for espresso are few and far between. When I post about them I know that they are going to sell out more quickly than if I don't post about them, which sometimes restrains me from posting on them as I don't want them to sell out. Yes, it is selfish, but also practical

ken

Ken Fox wrote:[snipped]

A lot of people home roast, and the quality of home roast is highly variable, but if I had to guess I'd say there is a negative correlation between the likelihood of being a home roaster as the price of the espresso gear in the household increases. I'd bet there is a much higher percentage of home roasting Silvia owners compared to the percentage of people who own commercial level equipment who home roast. The more money you have to buy equipment, the less sense it makes to home roast to save a couple of bucks per pound, after you amortize in the cost of the roasting equipment and your time. The people who have upper end equipment in their home and who continue to home roast probably have more interest in the roasting process and their results than they do in saving a few bucks on the coffee. Home roasting is, above all else, a smelly and messy PITA.

ken

This makes sense,(wish I'd thought of it) though I'd have to say that for me home roasting is also about cool experimentation, the relaxed periods while roasting, and always seeking that ultimate coffee roast.

That said, if I owned/could afford such as a GS3/ Robur,etc, I'd probably confine my home roasting to my vac pot coffees, and order espresso out, as it is (for me) much MUCH harder to nail a great espresso roast, whether a blend (pre or post) or even SO.
Guess THAT puts me in Chris' camp after all. YET...

Like Ken, though, I don't seem to remember THAT many posts from folks with uber expensive gear pulling shots with cheap coffee, though they DO occasionally whine about waste and such. Poor Baby.

Ken Fox wrote: When I post about them I know that they are going to sell out more quickly than if I don't post about them, which sometimes restrains me from posting on them as I don't want them to sell out. Yes, it is selfish, but also practical
ken

While you could say it's selfish.. I do the same thing with stuff like that. The most recent thing I can think of, is a great bottle of wine I found, for 6 bucks. I told all my friends about it, and they told their friends, and on and on. In 6 months, its gone from 6 dollars, to 10 dollars. Now, I KNOW this isn't solely because I PERSONALLY said things about it being great.. My Current "treasure" bottle of wine is found at my local wineshop for 7 dollars.. 6 with their discount club card. Ive told ONE person about this bottle of wine, and actually, he is on this forum(though Im not even sure he got the email).

Though.. I hope people do continue to alert us about great Single Origins.. the last two SOs I tried(this week and last), were bought on the sole suggestion of this website. Serra do Bone, and Finca La Tina.. Had no one suggested them I probably would have skipped over them for other things. Im so happy I tried them.. The Finca La Tina was easily the best espresso I have had all summer, and the Serra Do Bone comes in a close second to that.(Keep in mind, Ive not tried the Maravilla yet, so.. things could change)

I find it funny when people worry about waste.. Mostly with regard to the amount of coffee left in the doser of mazzer grinders when the vanes don't grab that last little dusting. To me it IS viable to do the sweeper mod for freshness sake.. But with regard to waste... After even a week, its still less the a half-gram. Now.. I personally think its stupid to seriously overfill the PF, and scrape off as much as 6 or more grams every shot(Ive actually seen this on Youtube a number of times).. because it simply is NOT neccesary to do it. But the amount left in the doser is so little, that if you saved it for a whole month, you could maybe pull two shots. And thats being pretty generous.

And, as to purging the grinder before a session.. I would much rather "waste" a gram or two then have my first shot of the day be a sink shot, every time, garunteed. I don't even consider it wasting, because since I started doing it about 3-4 months ago.. Its clear the "waste" is worth it.. And to me, it's not an option, unless you've got an M3.

Home roasting, for me, used to be because I loved that I took my beans from Green to Cup, myself. Selected, Possibly blended, Roasted, Rested, Ground, Extracted/Brewed, all on my own. The coffee was fantastic, and the espresso was good. Then, I took Rob's approach, of trying pro-roasted coffee as a benchmark, and because its great espresso. I realized that for espresso, while my homeroasts where good, I can't come close to the flavor and consistency of what the pros do. I did both for a while(ordered and roasted my espresso), but the pro roasted beans were always better.

Now, I still home roast, but not for espresso.. I just don't enjoy it. I roast my own beans for brewing, for a couple reasons. First, I don't brew enough coffee to buy a pound and use it before it's done. Second, I like the complete variety I can get, while still roasting small amounts. And mostly, I really enjoy my homeroasted brews. So, I will probably always homeroast.. But when it comes to espresso, I dont see myself ever seriously roasting my own beans.. There of course will always be the random experiments when Im in the mood.

And since it's all about the coffee... If you haven't tried the SO Brazil Serra Do Bone from EccoCafe, I highly suggest it.. This brazil is really great, Ive been pounding through the pound Ive got.. And Ill be getting some more at the end of the week. I tried it on the sole suggestion of those on this site, and its easily one of the best brazil SOs Ive had, if not THE best.

Marshall wrote:They are the first cousins of people who spend $5,000 on espresso machines and grinders, then use ultra-soft water to avoid having to descale. Buying, displaying and talking about high-priced machinery come first. Enjoying the very best cup of coffee they can is pretty much an afterthought.

Jeez! Does the title "coffee snob" ring a bell?

And by the way, don't you have a paddle group GS/3 on order? Let's see how you feel about protecting your investment after you cut the check. Here's hoping you won't have any new-machine issues with it and will be able to sit back and enjoy the very best cup of coffee you can...

I mean, cripes, yes, it makes no sense to spend thousands on equipment and buy cheap coffee. Duh. But like Ken and IMAWriter, I haven't read any posts from people who do that! What's the point in making that up? Yes, there have been quite a few posts from people starting out with espresso who buy consumer or entry-level prosumer machines and ask why the pre-ground coffee from the grocery store produces blond gushers. But is there a single post from a high-end user who buys coffee at Costco or bitches about paying $12.00 a pound for good coffee?

Similarly, some people can't seem to get it through their head that nobody is proposing using RO water to avoid descaling. I think they've fallen in love with the image of an idiot newbie buying distilled water at Walmart for his GS/3. How nice to feel superior to such a dolt! May I suggest they get a life. The truth is that LM Florence raised a red flag about soft water being bad for the boiler welds and LM USA adamantly recommends not descaling. On top of that we need to keep the mineral content high enough for good taste. Something of a dilemma, eh? But all that's really been talked about is the merits of cation systems versus tweaking water between maybe 30 ppm and 70 ppm hardness to find a sweet spot for flavor, pH and low maintenance. Hardly cause to get out the lobotomy kit. But exaggeration and strutting your stuff are so much more fun, aren't they?

Coffee means different things to different people. Being a newbie here, who sometimes gets the back of the hand from the experts, it's easy to remember that lording one's coffee knowledge and taste buds over others is an undignified act that doesn't win anyone's admiration.

A couple of cases in point: When I first got a PID Silvia and an M4, a close friend gave me a pound of Saquella caffe Espresso Crema (Gusto Forte!) pre-ground coffee from Italy in a tightly vacuum-packed brick. I have no idea what to do with it. Part of me says, "Try it! It's Italian!" Another part says, "It'll stale the minute you open the package. Don't waste your time." But the person who gave it to me meant well and spent some bucks trying to please me. I thanked her profusely for the thought. I did not try to educate her about the merits of grinding for each shot and how quickly pre-ground coffee stales.

Similarly, shortly after trading Silvia for a GS/3, I was at a board meeting and discovered that the management team is now making their own espresso. The CEO proudly showed me a Starbuck's Barista with pressurized portafilter in the coffee room, pulled three shots for the board members from one dose (!) of pre-ground coffee, then took me next door so I could get a free pound of Java Tree Espresso right out of the local microroaster's bins (no valve in the paper bag.) He said someone he knew who travelled the world tasting the finest coffees raved about Java Tree being the best espresso he's ever tasted. It's in my freezer now, and I stare at it every time I open the door. Am I going to spend the time trying to dial in that nearly-black oily roast? Is it possible that coffee will taste as good as the Vivace and Terroir coffees sitting next to it? I don't think so, but I thanked the CEO for the free coffee, acted like I won the lottery, and never once considered having a talk with him about his machine selection, the pressurized portafilter, squeezing three shots out of one dose, or where to get really good coffee. (But I didn't drink the shot.)

What would have been the point in making these people feel bad about their lack of coffee knowledge? What would I gain by bragging about my GS/3, grinder with German ceramic burrs, and a freezer full of SOs and blends from the finest roasters in the USA? How tiny is the percentage of people in this country who have any idea how good coffee can be, and will go to extremes we do to make it, and why would I want to feel superior to those who don't? My ego isn't that fragile, I guess.

I did invite the CEO to my house to try one of my shots. Hopefully, that will do all the talking for me.

One more point: For me, producing great espresso is an intellectual and scientific pursuit, but tasting and enjoying great espresso is a tactile, olfactory, gustatory and, finally, emotional experience. I admire people who can detect, identify and describe myriad subtle flavors in the cup, but it's not my thing. I want to disengage the left brain when I sip and just feel the sensation with the right brain. I don't want to distract myself trying to find the flavors that are supposed to be there. My goal isn't cherries with chocolate bomb notes. It's, "Ahhhhh". I very much resent insinuations that enjoying the coffee is an afterthought for me, or anyone else who posts on this site. It's the reason we're here, brother.

Obviously, my posts here are going to be about machines, science and technique for while. If and when I get all that stuff under control, my goal is the sensory experience. That means the journey will (hopefully) turn from process and equipment to an ongoing search among hundreds of coffees for those that make me happy. That's why this particular newbie spent a lot of money on equipment early in the game, and has asked tons of questions. It was to do the best I could to make the equipment invisible and put the spotlight on the coffee. I'm not there yet, and may never get to that ideal. But along the way, the last thing I want to do is read fictitious rants about people who don't exist, just so some people can feel superior.

End of my rant!

I read all these posts and it brings to light a personal reflections on my intelligence. I can only laugh at myself. I have been mildly interested in the process of making espresso for years but didn't get the final motivation until recently. After I purchased a Nespresso Citiz Milk machine and realized that how much better it was than coffee from our Technivorm my interest was stimulated. However I was turned off by paying 65 to 70 cents per pod for coffee but ultimately spent close to $5g's on an espresso machine and grinder. Talk about goofy? However it has been an enjoyable process and one that will reward us for many years.

As my wife says...Men and their toys!

malachi wrote:Start with great coffee.

I think that is great advice and I also believe there are readers of HB that could benefit from it.

And yes, I am a cheapskate, and yes, I have skimped on the coffee (and also when I should have known better...).

Ken Fox wrote:I just don't recall reading very many posts by people who went out and spend lots of money on expensive gear and then fed it crap coffee.

Neither do I, though there are people who engage in false economy. For example, those who buy gear and then [attempt to] dial it in using crap coffee because they don't want to "waste" good coffee.

ken fox wrote:A lot of people home roast, and the quality of home roast is highly variable, but if I had to guess I'd say there is a negative correlation between the likelihood of being a home roaster as the price of the espresso gear in the household increases. I'd bet there is a much higher percentage of home roasting Silvia owners compared to the percentage of people who own commercial level equipment who home roast.

No debate there. Then again, I didn't home roast for all those years I owned and used a Gaggia Coffee on a daily basis, and I don't home-roast now that I've moved on to a machine that costs 10x as much . . .

ken fox wrote:The more money you have to buy equipment, the less sense it makes to home roast to save a couple of bucks per pound, after you amortize in the cost of the roasting equipment and your time. The people who have upper end equipment in their home and who continue to home roast probably have more interest in the roasting process and their results than they do in saving a few bucks on the coffee. Home roasting is, above all else, a smelly and messy PITA.

There is -- or at least, there may be for some -- something else at work here.

I know how to make wine. I have made wine at commercial wineries. And I've made wine in a home/amateur environment. And I know that professionals do it better.* The same is true with home roasting.

ken fox wrote:A lot of people home roast, and the quality of home roast is highly variable . . .

I have no doubt that there are many here who do a fine job with their home roasts, but I doubt there is anyone here who would disagree with Ken's sentiment. And rather than invest in the equipment, in the time, in the effort to home roast with "variable" results, I'd much rather pay the professionals who will always know more about their craft than I . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* FWIW, I can count the number of truly outstanding homemade wines I've had over the past 30+ years on one hand . . . and I've judged homemade wines at the county and state level. Lots of horrible stuff; lots of good stuff. Some very good, and it's few and far between the wines that I'd rate better than that.