AndyS wrote:I humbly suggest that your argumentative style has more chance of success when you stick to merely insulting one person at a time, rather than an entire industry.

and I humbly suggest that your posts would have more impact as "onesies," rather than as three one-liners in a row . . . .

ken

Ken & Andy; how about a ceasefire?

As a neutral observer, Ken, I have to say that I find it ironic that you rant against Schomer's dogmatism, and yet you're desperately planting your own flag on the "rediscovery" of 14g doses and lighter tamping over and over again on the forums here.

I'm not arguing against lighter doses. In fact, I completely agree that with the coffees I prefer, a lighter dose (often somewhere between 14-16g for a double) reveals nuances and subtleties that I really enjoy. I've even writtten on one of the forums here about how numbing and dulling I personally find ristrettos and heavier doses.

But arguing that all coffees produce better espresso when prepared at lighter doses, that a heavy tamp is always useless, that all espresso machines are designed for lighter doses, or, more recently, that all 3rd wave coffeeshops use faulty techniques and serve an Americanized abomination of espresso (no generalizations there)... who's creating a mythology now?

You've suggested that people try a lighter dose and tamp. Point taken.

bcquinn1 wrote:As a neutral observer, Ken, I have to say that I find it ironic that you rant against Schomer's dogmatism, and yet you're desperately planting your own flag on the "rediscovery" of 14g doses and lighter tamping over and over again on the forums here.

I'm not arguing against lighter doses. In fact, I completely agree that with the coffees I prefer, a lighter dose (often somewhere between 14-16g for a double) reveals nuances and subtleties that I really enjoy. I've even writtten on one of the forums here about how numbing and dulling I personally find ristrettos and heavier doses.

But arguing that all coffees produce better espresso when prepared at lighter doses, that a heavy tamp is always useless, that all espresso machines are designed for lighter doses, or, more recently, that all 3rd wave coffeeshops use faulty techniques and serve an Americanized abomination of espresso (no generalizations there)... who's creating a mythology now?

You've suggested that people try a lighter dose and tamp. Point taken.

Dear Sir,

Andy and I have been asked to cease and desist, which I think is good and reflects good moderating on this moderated discussion board.

I might add, however, that I don't especially appreciate being misquoted and quoted out of context, and when that occurs, I feel absolutely no obligation to defend a caricature of what it was that I have actually said.

ken

Almost a year since the last posting but I think so much has happened in the US/New York espresso scene in that time that it is time for a follow up. It is such a delight to see espresso radicals, espresso conservatives and espresso eccentrics emerge where only a few years ago there was only "e x p r e s s o"! Just as in any healthy political environment, the radicals stretch our understanding and the conservatives try to drag us back kicking and screaming.
Both with equal fervour as to their correctness!
We've been training for almost a year now - our own recipe, our own emphasis and our own agenda - none of which I will go into here. All I will say is that in that short time the average knowledge of our students when they walk in the door is much greater than a year ago and it is in no small part due to this and similar sites as well as the incredibly committed espresso bar owners in Manhattan, Brooklyn and beyond.

One interesting thought though, written with a wry smile.
(Some) Men think that if they have 10 rods and 100 lures they will catch bigger fish.
(Some) Men think that if they have 5 cameras and 15 lenses, they will take better photographs.
(Some) Men think that if they own a G5....

"The purpose of wine is to bring happiness to man." H. Lindeman.

Sounds like coffee to me:)

Hello Rowan,
Welcome to Home-Barista (it's about time). For those who don't know, Rowan is the proprietor of Kitten Coffee in Brooklyn (importer & coffee roaster), a fine gentleman from Australia and an excellent instructor (and, in the interest of full disclosure I was a student in one of his classes last year).

perstare

Hi,

This is an interesting thread as it unraveled out. I think Vivace and Schomer are great, but I'm glad the bean and techniques allow for variety, something he does not seem interested in.

I'm posting to mention this book:

Espresso Coffee: The Science of Quality is by Rinantonio Viani of Nestle Research Laboratories in Switzerland and Andreas Illy of Illycafe and Nestle.

as mentioned on the Sweet Marias home roasting web site. I would guess minutiae galore and an exploration of espresso varieties are therein. Anyone have a comment?

Chert wrote:I'm posting to mention this book [Espresso Coffee]... I would guess minutiae galore and an exploration of espresso varieties are therein. Anyone have a comment?

Not my impression at all. As the title implies, the Viani/Illy text is a scientific treatise on espresso, perhaps the first among very few. There are articles on the fundamentals of espresso preparation, from the coffee bean to roasting to grinding to brewing. Conclusions are generally backed up with scientific data. The chapters by Petracco, in particular, are worth their weight in gold. A remarkable work, but not exactly light reading.

I second John on this. It's mostly a reference book and a bibliographic gateway to coffee research; but I give it a big thumbs up.

Although the $85 price sounds steep, it's very well printed and very cheap by academic standards; my guess is either that Illy is subsidizing the print runs to some extent, or that it's selling a lot more copies than the average academic edition.

In the last year and a half, some HB regulars have been very focussed on grinders and the nitty-gritty of espresso extraction. In this effort, it turned out that the corresponding chapters by Petracci in the Illy book were key to understanding some of the more inexplicable things we were seeing. However, this wasn't information that popped out, or that you'd notice if you were reading the chapter just to find out how to make a good shot or what sort of grinder to buy. Instead, the book became very useful, at least to me, a step or two further into my coffee hobby, when my questions started to get more detailed. I think others will confirm this.

If you want a more accessible route into the latest in haute-espresso, Scott Rao's book is the stand out choice. Scott has been a big part of the group trying to make everyday sense of the science, and his primer on espresso is far more grounded in on-going research than Schomer's ever was. I would regard it as the one must buy book for anyone starting out in espresso today.

another_jim wrote:haute-espresso

Wonderful phrase, Jim!

[possible example of haute-espresso appears below]