misterdoggy wrote:I had a very long discussion with Roberto Bianchi the head of Production at La Marzocco about water hardness. I told him I was using 30ppm (french its 3 in Italian) using a brita to filter water out of the faucet which was 140ppm. I post this here as its the opinion of the factory that water softer than 70-80ppm can have an affect on the welded parts of the boiler. Too soft a water can be detrimental as several machines in Israel had problems. He felt that he would rather see me use a 70-80ppm water and descale once a year than use too soft a water, due to welding susceptibility.

I do not understand the science of Distilled water's effect on welding, but maybe someone knowledgeable here can weigh in. In any case, Roberto "suggested" that coffee would not taste as good using water that was too soft, and that 70-80ppm's should be just right. I know I have read postings about this subject where some feel 50ppm is just right. However, the welding issues are important too.

I would guess Roberto is worried that soft water will have a low-PH, and that the acidic environment will etch the welds in the boilers.

As I posted in ZeroWater: New Water Treatment Option for Pourover Espresso Machines, I asked LM USA about hardness and descaling, and they said 3-4 grains of hardness would be adequate for taste, and if the boilers are drained once a month, descaling shouldn't be required for several years. They're a bit below Roberto's recommendation, but in the same ballpark. I can see where Roberto's higher recommendation would require descaling a bit more frequently, i.e, annually.

Just to be safe, I've been using water in the 30-35 ppm range since acquiring my GS/3 a few weeks ago. But evidence is mounting that it would be wise to increase the hardness, both to deal with the weld issue and for taste. I don't have a problem with descaling once a year, but LM doesn't provide any guidelines for descaling, nor do they even mention it in the manuals. My sense is that they want to avoid liability for any damage caused by acidic descaling solutions. It's sort of a conundrum: you have to use harder water to avoid acid etching of the boiler welds, but harder water requires that you bathe the parts in an acidic solution once a year.

Given what we all paid for these machines, perhaps we should press LM USA for a recommendation on descaling procedures, including strength of the descaling solution, time to let it sit in the machine, amount of flushing after descaling, etc.

Moderator note: topic split from La Marzocco GS3 Owners. See the original thread for context.

Peppersass wrote:Given what we all paid for these machines, perhaps we should press LM USA for a recommendation on descaling procedures, including strength of the descaling solution, time to let it sit in the machine, amount of flushing after descaling, etc.

Given what people are paying for these machines, it makes no sense to compromise espresso quality to minimize or avoid descaling. Descaling is a normal maintenance procedure for espresso machines, especially commercial models. There were some helpful GS/3 tips and photo links posted here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/383676#383676.

Marshall wrote:Given what people are paying for these machines, it makes no sense to compromise espresso quality to minimize or avoid descaling. Descaling is a normal maintenance procedure for espresso machines, especially commercial models. There were some helpful GS/3 tips and photo links posted here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/383676#383676.

Hi Marshall,

Companies that sell complex water treatment systems would like everyone to believe that any sort of water treatment other than what they sell will produce inferior espresso. I personally do not believe that to be true.

There are a variety of water treatment options out there that can produce good or excellent results depending on the characteristics of the water one starts with. If I was starting with the sort of water that you have, in the LA area, then all bets would be off because the water (as you put it before) smells bad, tastes bad, and is very hard.

On the other hand, if one is starting with tasty water that happens to be a bit hard, such as my situation, with Rocky Mountain spring water that happens to have 11 grains per gallon of hardness in it, then other options are available. I know of no good science showing that cation softened water that starts out on the input side with my sort of water, produces noticeably inferior espresso compared to, for example, a Cirqua system. Of course, that is not the demonstration that Cirqua or another company would give you, rather they would compare their customized water with either unsoftened hard water, or deionized water that has either no minerals or too few minerals added back in. The comparison with, for example, simple cation softening of good quality but too hard water, is not given. And I know of no one who has made that comparison in any sort of scientific way.

Saving money or time by not having scale develop in the first place is not necessarily a cop out solution, it might be a very rational solution for someone in a situation such as mine. Until I know of some reason why not to do so, why some other approach would be clearly superior, I can't see any reason to go through the rigmarole of using water that is hard enough to scale, and then to descale afterwards. I'd have to see a real benefit and I know of no proof that such a benefit exists.

As far as I can tell (and I'm no water chemist; ask your wife ) cation softening causes miniscule or no change in the ph of the water that has been so softened. It does introduce some sodium into the water, however I doubt that this would be important in a LM boiler made of SS. If it is a potential problem, I'd like to be corrected.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:Hi Marshall,

Companies that sell complex water treatment systems would like everyone to believe that any sort of water treatment other than what they sell will produce inferior espresso. I personally do not believe that to be true.

I have no idea what you are talking about, Ken. The subject was whether people should use 30-35ppm water so they never have to descale.

Marshall wrote:There were some helpful GS/3 tips and photo links posted here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/383676#383676.

Not really.

First, I don't want to know what some random guy thinks is the right concentration of descaler for the GS/3. I want that information from the manufacturer.

Second, the guy doesn't know the machine well enough to be giving instructions. If you follow the photo link, you can see that he drains the steam boiler from the wrong tap. You risk a bad burn if you do it that way (hence his silly recommendation to be careful and use a bar towel.) The correct procedure is to use the ball valve on the very bottom edge of the boiler. After removing the brass cap that covers the valve, you can tip the machine over a sink and open the ball valve without getting burned (there's a little black plastic lever that opens the ball valve.) Safer yet, you can slip a vinyl drain tube over the ball valve while it's closed, then open it to drain the boiler (that's how I do it.) Finally, he drains the brew boiler by taking the group head apart, which is ridiculous. The brew boiler is easily drained via the OPV. All of this is in the instruction manual.

Marshall wrote:I have no idea what you are talking about, Ken. The subject was whether people should use 30-35ppm water so they never have to descale.

Hi Marshall,

I guess there are several ways one could have "30-35ppm water," or generically water that is very soft. One way would be to live in the Pacific Northwest or other area that naturally has soft water. In most cases, as I understand it, this sort of water is suboptimal for making espresso, and something should be done to it to make it "better." Exactly what that "something" might be, I'm not entirely clear on, not having had to deal with that situation myself, and therefore not having been motivated to evaluate it.

Of course, water that lacks sufficient minerals is not going to cause boiler scaling to any degree, although the coffee it makes is likely to be mediocre. But, there might be more than one type of water that fits this description, so I'd not want to go overboard by saying that ALL water with this level of minerals in it is bad for espresso. I don't know because I haven't studied it.

More commonly, if one is concerned about boiler scale, one is dealing with water that is hard enough to cause scale. What this means is that the water has enough calcium carbonate in it that the calcium will precipitate out in the boiler and scale it up (if one has a HX machine then it can also scale up the heat exchanger). This is a problem that merits attention because without attention one can do a lot of damage to ones espresso machine.

I think we need to distill this topic into its meaningful elements, and to separate out what we know and what we do not know. We know that distilled water or water from some areas with very soft water, produces sub par espresso. Even these areas with very soft water (such as Seattle and Vancouver) presumably have some minerals in their water, they just don't happen to be the right minerals or to be in sufficient quantity to make for a good espresso extraction. We also know that if you take all the minerals out of water, e.g. make deionized water, that this works poorly for espresso. We know that if you take deionized water and add back minerals (e.g. the Cirqua convention demonstration, hereinafter referred to as the "Cirqua Circus Act,") there is an impact on mineralization of water in the quality of espresso produced.

But none of this tells us what any given person should do with THEIR water, and whether THEIR water treatment should optimally cause boiler scale over time and require periodic descaling (as you implied in your post). In order to be optimal, does the extraction water need calcium carbonate in it, or might some other mineral or minerals suffice? I don't know.

And what of competing, simpler, and cheaper ways of treating hard water? Are they to be dismissed because they are not considered in the "Circus Act?" Is all naturally hard water, after softening with ion exchange, not suitable for making espresso? What is the difference between PPM of minerals overall, and PPM (or grains or whatever) of calcium carbonate? Can one generalize from the experience with bad hard water (such as one finds in LA) and with too soft, mineral poor, water (such as in Seattle) to other areas that might have a completely different array of minerals in the water, especially after cheaper and easier water treatment methods such as cation softening? Properly softened water in at least some circumstances will produce excellent espresso and the boiler will not need periodic descaling because it will not scale up to begin with. I know this to be true because at least with the water I have where I live, once it is softened, it makes great espresso, and does not cause scale because it has 0 grains per gallon of calcium hardness, while remaining mineral rich.

So, I am challenging the notion that one needs to sign on for a regimen of regular boiler descaling in order to have good espresso, espresso that would merit the expenditure on a machine such as a GS3. I know of no evidence to support the idea that most or all people buying this machine or a similarly expensive machine, would need to treat their water in a way that obligates them to descale.

Perhaps I've missed something.

ken

Peppersass wrote:Finally, he drains the brew boiler by taking the group head apart, which is ridiculous. The brew boiler is easily drained via the OPV. All of this is in the instruction manual.

Great, you're already the GS/3 drainage expert (not being sarcastic).

But, I wouldn't expect a manufacturer to tell you which descaler to buy. If LM recommends one, they risk ticking off 5 competeing suppliers, and each descaler supplier may have somewhat different directions for use. I would check with your dealer for advice.

Ken Fox wrote:So, I am challenging the notion that one needs to sign on for a regimen of regular boiler descaling in order to have good espresso, espresso that would merit the expenditure on a machine such as a GS3. I know of no evidence to support the idea that most or all people buying this machine or a similarly expensive machine, would need to treat their water in a way that obligates them to descale.

Perhaps I've missed something

Yes, you are reviving a 4-year old discussion about the Cirqua show-floor demonstration for the purpose of having an entertaining argument. But it is irrelevant to the question at hand. The gentleman said he is using water in the 30-35 TDS range and has some concern about going higher because of the need to descale. I said it is a worthwhile tradeoff, because of the improvement in the cup. I gave no advice on how to increase his mineral content and have no idea (and don't care) how he reaches his current soft water level.

For myself, I will probably treat my 220 TDS, chlorine-reeking tap water with the adjustable Everpure Claris system. My wife is assembling the test materials to make a definitive decision and to adjust the system in the future, if we buy it.

Ken Fox wrote:So, I am challenging the notion that one needs to sign on for a regimen of regular boiler descaling in order to have good espresso, espresso that would merit the expenditure on a machine such as a GS3. I know of no evidence to support the idea that most or all people buying this machine or a similarly expensive machine, would need to treat their water in a way that obligates them to descale.

Perhaps I've missed something.

ken

I don't think you missed anything.

I'd much prefer to avoid descaling altogether, not just to eliminate a procedure but to avoid any possible damage to the machine from the acidic descaling solution. That's why I started out using 30-35 ppm water created by adding a bit of my hard (143 ppm) tap water to ZeroWater. Now, had Roberto said only that I should get the hardness up to 70-80 ppm for taste, and descale once a year, I would have ignored the recommendation. Like you, I don't think there's sufficient evidence that 70-80 ppm is necessarily the holy grail of taste for my well water (which tastes so good that friends bring jugs over to take some home.)

No, Roberto threw a wrench in the works by letting us know that some users of soft water experienced damage to their boiler welds. Unfortunately, he didn't specify the pH or alkalinity level of the water in question. When I produce 30-35 ppm water, the alkalinity level drops to about 35-50 ppm. Is this high enough to avoid problems with the boiler welds? I don't know. But it certainly troubles me that Roberto didn't like misterdoggy's 30-35 ppm water.

Given the weld problem, a cation system seems like a good solution for the GS/3 (no pun intended.) First, and most important, it preserves the alkalinity. I would guess in most hard water areas this would result in enough alkalinity to avoid damage to the boiler welds. It certainly would here. As for taste, I agree with you that there's no strong evidence that the 0-20 mg/L hardness water produced by a cation system makes bad espresso. In fact, Jim's taste test in his water FAQ indicated that there was virtually no difference between cation water and RO + hard water adjusted for 40 mg/L hardness and 25 mg/L alkalinity, and he only found a minor difference between cation water and "ideal" coffee water with 100 mg/L hardness and 50 mg/L alkalinity.

I plan to plumb in soon, and was thinking about an Everpure Claris system. But that will put me right back in the same dilemma I have now formulating water for pourover: Should I pull down the hardness to eliminate scale, which may lower the alkalinity too much and risk damage to the welds, or should I set the hardness to Roberto's recommendation and descale once a year? A cation system would eliminate this dilemma, leaving only the question of taste. Also, it's less expensive (but presumably requires more maintenance.)

Peppersass wrote:I don't think you missed anything.

I'd much prefer to avoid descaling altogether, not just to eliminate a procedure but to avoid any possible damage to the machine from the acidic descaling solution. (snippage)

Given the weld problem, a cation system seems like a good solution for the GS/3 (no pun intended.) First, and most important, it preserves the alkalinity. I would guess in most hard water areas this would result in enough alkalinity to avoid damage to the boiler welds. It certainly would here. As for taste, I agree with you that there's no strong evidence that the 0-20 mg/L hardness water produced by a cation system makes bad espresso. In fact, Jim's taste test in his water FAQ indicated that there was virtually no difference between cation water and RO + hard water adjusted for 40 mg/L hardness and 25 mg/L alkalinity, and he only found a minor difference between cation water and "ideal" coffee water with 100 mg/L hardness and 50 mg/L alkalinity.

I plan to plumb in soon, and was thinking about an Everpure Claris system. But that will put me right back in the same dilemma I have now formulating water for pourover: Should I pull down the hardness to eliminate scale, which may lower the alkalinity too much and risk damage to the welds, or should I set the hardness to Roberto's recommendation and descale once a year? A cation system would eliminate this dilemma, leaving only the question of taste. Also, it's less expensive (but presumably requires more maintenance.)

In my case, I put in a whole house water softener and I use the softened water from that in my GS3. Rather than adding a maintenance step, it removes them. I used to have problems with scale buildup in the plumbing fixtures in my house, and those are now gone. All I have to do is to remember to recharge the softener resin every couple of weeks. My softener has the option to recharge the resin on a regular schedule. I don't let it do that because the softener is in my basement, below grade, and it depends on a sump pump in a below ground tank in order to evacuate the wastewater from the softener recharging itself. If that sump pump went out during a recharging, when I was not home, there could be serious water damage in my basement. Therefore, I only operate the softener when I am home, and I have water alarms in the basement that would go off if the sump pump failed, so I could avert disaster were this to happen. Before having the whole house softener installed, I used one of Chris's cartridge systems which treat the water the same way.

My suggestion would be to hook up a cation softener cartridge system and use it for a while, to see how you like the taste of the espresso it produces. If you are satisfied with that, then I would not go any further with my water treatment research as it is unlikely that you would get enough improvement from a more elaborate system to justify the expense and the effort.

ken