another_jim wrote:<snip>

I liked the Compak best of the ones I tested, since it had a slightly better motor than its rivals. It's good to hear that they've improved the flimsy on/off switch as well. Sadly, their US importer is currently not making this model available at even a remotely reasonable price, the US MSRP is about 60% higher than in the rest of the world. So I suspect that other commercial conicals grinders will be the norm in the US market.

Quite frankly, I don't understand how espresso manufacturers regularly end up destroying themselves like this here in the US. Cimbali and Reneka are two more examples -- they own large chunks of the market everywhere on the planet except the US, where they are not a factor, since their importers add medieval level markups.

Hi Jim,

Sad story. The price Chris Coffee asks is $ 1.417,50 for the K10 WBC. Calculated to Euros gives me 1.124,87. I paid Euros 1.129,= which is about the same amount.
Both 1st-line and Espressoparts ask $ 1.417,50. Weird though is that these two companies pretend they give a discount by quoting $ 2.025 as being the regular price ("You save $ 607,50"). Since several years, this cheating practice is outlawed in my country. These two companies should be ashamed about themselves. In what way Compak USA is involved in this pricing affair is hard to tell. Anyway, the grinder is great and that's the point, as is the real (competitive, I think) price to be paid.

Regards. Wilco



...split from Compak K10 WBC grinder - user report by moderator...

Excuse me but BOTH companies DO NOT practice what you are referring to. I do not and NEVER have!
http://www.chriscoffee.com/produc...inders/compak10wbc I do however have to post M.A.P. pricing which is dictated by the manufacturer. All someone has to do is call and ask for a better price if they are really interested in purchasing one. We have them in stock as well as the shorter hoppers.

I'm sorry I wasn't able to thank you sooner for posting that picture. It's hard to get internet, let alone a good espresso where I was today.


The K10 looks about as high as your Duetto from the photo so if the hopper is anything like a short Mazzer hopper than the unit is somewhere around 21" high. It won't fit under my cabinets but its still an attractive looking set-up.

Do the ones in the US have the more reliable on/off switch?

PS: Kudos to Chris for cruising the boards and finding something he needed to weigh in on. You'd think he'd be cruising sites other than coffee on his weekend!

MAP agreements were illegal (because of their inherent anti-trust aspect) until the conservative Bush Supreme Court ruled otherwise in a 5-4 ruling in 2007. In effect giving businesses additional pricing strength, ultimately driving up prices for the consumer. I'm not a lawyer, but I remember this well as I felt that big business scored another advantage over the consumer. (It's no secret that the Bush court has been very pro business).

I think many consumers are not inclined to realize that they can always ask for better pricing. They may not get it with every vendor, but it doesn't hurt to ask especially if you are serious about buying the product.

I have nothing but good things to say about the vendors who support this site.

perstare

I just checked 1st line and espresso parts web sites and they do indeed engage in the practice Wilco referred to, sorry Chris. You may not do it but they do. Personally I don't trust an online retailer who pulls that stunt.
regards, Ian

I bought mine for $750 FOB from the factory, which was Compak's qty 1 price last year. After shipping and customs, it came to around $900. There were heavy discounts if someone bought more. When the import agreement went through, and the factory stopped selling at qty 1, I was emailed by several HK sellers offering the same price.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole distribution model these companies use is nuts. There's a very legitimate role for people like Chris and Jim P who offer terrific service and marketing, buy in quantity, and have low markups. But some clown who calls himself an importer, rents a U-store locker, buys 3 machines a year at qty 1 prices, then doubles their price before sending it to retailers, is simply putting the brand out of business. The 68mm Macap is available under $1k. The Compak is a slightly better grinder, but if it isn't priced roughly the same, it won't sell.

HB wrote:As Chris said, some manufacturers require that the dealers display Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) in their ads.

I don't think that the case of the pricing for the K10 WBC on EPNW/1st-Line is an instance of MAP, but rather Manufacturer's (Importer's?) Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). The idea of such an unrealistically high MSRP does seem a little bit trite, but despicable? I think that some of us might need to get a grip on our sense of proportionality: Stealing someone's purse is despicable. Kicking a stranger in the crotch is despicable. Claiming a ridiculously high retail price, but still selling your goods at the going, fair market rate is silly, not despicable; it seems like a rather petty thing to outlaw, in my opinion.

This morning I found a message in my mail from Chris Nachtrieb, who wrote "I think you owe me an apology on the public forum. That was a cheap shot and the worst part is that was not true".
My reply to him was that he had to become a more accurate reader. It was not him who has to be ashamed of himself but his competitors. They are the ones who fool their customers in letting them believe they got a huge discount.
So Chris, I think it is not me but you who need apologizing

Anyway, the above posts of Chris and Dan Kehn made me wondering about the consequences of MAP and the "Call for better pricing" statements on websites. My interpretation is that the quality of your negotiating talents determines the eventual price you pay. I associate this with buying products on the market of a third world country. Introvert types seem to be the victim of this practice. Let's hope your new president will rollback these super-capitalistic measures of the present president.

To EdWa: 1 inch = 2.54 cm. When I calculate this accurately, my outcome of the total height of the K10, including the 275 grams hopper, is 19 inch, not 21. And if this does not fit, then you seem to have extremely low hanging cabinets. Perhaps you could place the grinder on a side table?
Further you ask "Do the ones in the US have the more reliable on/off switch?" I presume the answer is "yes" but I am not shure. You could check with Chris Nachtrieb. And should you do this, then you can also check the real price to pay for a K10 and report this back to us. If Jim is correct, this could be (depending on your negotiating power) under $1k. And if that is true, man, than the K10 really is the deal of the century, so to speak. I hardly can believe that.

All this talking about prices can distract attention away from the real topic, the very significant increase in quality of your espresso by using a big conical like the K10. And perhaps a bit buried in my report: the La Marzocco single basket is truly wonderful! In comparison with other single and double baskets this thing results in a much better look, mouth feel AND taste. And to top it off, it is far less sensitive to little errors in dosing, distributing and tamping. Disclaimer: a convex tamper gave me better results than a flat one. For 15 bucks this a no-brainer. Buy it or ask Santa.

shadowfax wrote:I don't think that the case of the pricing for the K10 WBC on EPNW/1st-Line is an instance of MAP, but rather Manufacturer's (Importer's?) Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). The idea of such an unrealistically high MSRP does seem a little bit trite, but despicable? I think that some of us might need to get a grip on our sense of proportionality: Stealing someone's purse is despicable. Kicking a stranger in the crotch is despicable. Claiming a ridiculously high retail price, but still selling your goods at the going, fair market rate is silly, not despicable; it seems like a rather petty thing to outlaw, in my opinion.

It's still a bad business practice, and should be outlawed since it implies that you get a HUGE bargain to make you spend money just to get it so incredibly cheap. It's designed to support impulse shopping so the buyer does not compare your business to other vendors that might be able to offer a better deal. It's not fair, it's deceiving and it's in the gray-zone of what goes under the terms of an open market, and should therefore be outlawed.

To you and me the above might sound silly since we understand concepts like MSRP and MAP, but does you average American?

Jim Schulman and I DID get a "better" deal than the listed suggested price when we bought our two grinders together more than a year ago. Some of this can be accounted for by currency conversion rates (which went up afterwards, apparently when these suggested prices were set, and have since descended again).

I wouldn't read as much into the pricing that we got as Jim has. I think we were given a good deal at the wholesale rate (I remember them saying that) because there was no US distribution system at that time. And, as Chris as said, he negotiates prices so you'd pay significantly less than the $300 premium I cited.

In the defense of dealers, we received two very poorly packaged grinders each of which was damaged in some way (mine so severely that it became unusable). We had no USA based dealer to help us with those issues and became reliant on ourselves for the repair work. In addition, Compak was not very attentive to us as customers and it took repeated phone calls with several people over many weeks to get them to actually ship the grinders to us. There is and never will be a "free lunch."

A good dealer, like Chris, offers something in exchange for not selling his goods at his own cost (which would of course put him out of business rather rapidly, to say nothing about what it would do to his golf club membership ). Chris offers service and he stands behind what he sells.

I "saved" about $300 on my grinder purchase, made at a time when Chris didn't sell these grinders and when in fact there was no USA source for them. I suffered much more than $300 worth of aggravation with this broken grinder which Compak USA ultimately replaced, not to mention not even having the use of this grinder for many months of my "ownership" of same. Given a choice of a painless purchase from Chris of this same product, with Chris standing behind it, I'd gladly pay that $300 before experiencing what I experienced a year and a half ago.

ken

It's not easy being a retailer - online or otherwise - especially in states such as NY and NJ with high state taxes and so may business un-friendly regulations. It really doesn't matter whether you call it MAP or MSRP - manufacturers of many, many products - coffee related and otherwise - are legally allowed to cut off supply to a retailer if that retailer publicly advertises at less than the stipulated price.

Go to amazon.com or countless other respectable purveyors of consumer electronics etc. - they are doing exactly the same thing. The web site will state either "Add to cart to see our low price" or "Call us for our low price". Heck - in this state (NY) the state government even controls the minimum price at which liquor can be sold - not just advertised - there is actually a minimum selling price.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of calling or clicking to get the price then look for a different vendor and take your chances. It's unfair and a cheap shot to berate any honest and ethical vendor for doing what they are obligated to do in order to sell a given brand of product.

Stuggi wrote:It's still a bad business practice, and should be outlawed since it implies that you get a HUGE bargain to make you spend money just to get it so incredibly cheap. It's designed to support impulse shopping so the buyer does not compare your business to other vendors that might be able to offer a better deal. It's not fair, it's deceiving and it's in the gray-zone of what goes under the terms of an open market, and should therefore be outlawed.

To you and me the above might sound silly since we understand concepts like MSRP and MAP, but does you average American?

I'm not a baby, and I don't expect to be babied by my government. I don't appreciate when it babies others. To whit: Caveat emptor. It's as old as time. MAP might potentially--in some cases--be a monopolistic practice. In other cases, it's a perfectly defensible practice. If I make a product, and you want to sell it, why shouldn't I be able to tell you, at a minimum, what to sell it for? If you don't like it, maybe you should buy something else, rather than complain to the government? But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about MSRP. Why in God's name would any government care about that? There are much, much bigger problems in this world that governments need to take on.

I really would like to know--does it matter to your 'average American' (MSRP)? It's not like it changes the price. And even MAP--what does it matter? You don't like the price, buy another grinder! It may be the stupidest thing ever, but it's not the government's job to make sure that you can buy an expensive coffee grinder from a certain brand for a 'fair' price.

Wilco: You accused two of this site's sponsors of cheating (Terry Z and Jim P), people, to put it bluntly, you don't even know. You asserted that what they were doing was cheating, but, personally, I think that's a load of bollocks. They're giving you a good deal, regardless. Is that something to be ashamed of? Alas. This business, as Jim Schulman's posts point out, is rather complicated. There are some bad men in the business, but Terry Z, Jim P, and Chris N are not among them. I don't think it was prudent for you to call out blame on people based on what you read on a website: you don't know the whole story.

I bought a Compak grinder from Chris' Coffee. I found them as a dealer through this and other sites where their customer service was praised. I did not know of the Compak brand before calling (Mary) and spending A LOT of time on the phone discussing MY specific needs. This was before any sale was assured for Chris. I felt comfortable with the choice in good part because of the extensive conversation. The price in the end was cheaper then the MACAP I was thinking of buying and I did not mind even paying the NY tax to get the service I needed as a beginner who does not know the ins and outs of home espresso.

Well their service came in handy again this week when I noticed what could be a small problem with my machine. I got tech help on the phone. He could not answer immediately but went into the shop to take apart a K3 touch and called me back within an hour or so to tell me that I did not have any problem at all and my grinder was fine.

Chris and co-workers - you have a very satisfied customer. (next time I might ask for that discount you mentioned to ask about )

Nicholas: it certainly was not my intention this thread developed in a pricing strategy discussion. Far from it. What I do know is that the concept of MSRP (not sure about MAP) is outlawed in the European Communion for a reason: to protect citizens in improving on the transparency of prices. And some citizens need more protection (or "babieing") from the government than others, would you not say?

Now, what I learned from all posts above is this: two internet retailers use MSRP plus MAP and one internet retailer uses MAP only. Further I learned all three are site sponsors, not bad men and give good service and deals. And then, all three are successfully being forced by an alien importer to use MAP. Last: you and some others think there is no problem.

Well, as I am not an American citizen and also respect everyone's opinion, I just hope for you all - if you don't mind - that your new government will rollback all consumer hostile laws of the present administration.

Regards. Wilco

NoMilkToday wrote:Nicholas: it certainly was not my intention this thread developed in a pricing strategy discussion. Far from it. What I do know is that the concept of MSRP (not sure about MAP) is outlawed in the European Communion for a reason: to protect citizens in improving on the transparency of prices.

I believe you are mistaken. You are confusing "resale price maintenance" (enforced retail prices) with the advertisement of the manufacturer's suggested retail prices ("MSRP"). Like the EU, the U.S. outlaws the former, but not the latter.

Here is a link to a British bookseller offering the title "Competition Law in the European Community" with the MSRP plainly listed: http://www.pricegrabber.co.uk/search_getprod.php/isbn=9780749405021.

Wow. Truly remarkable that the "consumer hostile laws of the present administration" are so far-reaching

Jim

NoMilkToday wrote:[snipped]
Let's hope your new president will rollback these super-capitalistic measures of the present president.

As we here don't comment on your politics in the Netherlands, I, for one would rather you keep the politics out of your subsequent posts.
This is a coffee forum.
Another point if I may. Chris is one of the most respected vendors in the business. He was only, as we say here in the States "man-ing up." Letting you know his problem with your statement. It was a private email, and should have stayed private.

Yes, I stand corrected. I have wrongly translated the Dutch word "Gemeenschap" into "Communion" instead of "Community". Thanks for pointing out that I have to study harder in writing English as good as a native.

And yes, I too believe that Chris N is a good vendor. Even more, if I were American I probably would have been a customer of his too (especially in him selling not only the K10 but also the Duetto). The link you posted, Jason, proves this is an OK guy. People are invited to call for a better price in the case of a MAP-price. When browsing the sites of the other retailers, and seeing in some (not all!) cases products priced with MSRP, MAP and the difference between these, called Discount, one has not the idea the call for a better price; instead one thinks to get a great deal, because of the huge Discount. I already shared my thoughts about this practice with you.

And yes, I also believe private email should stay private. However, in his public (!) post Chris N put words in my mouth/post that were not there. He wrote "Excuse me but BOTH companies DO NOT practice what you are referring to. I do not and NEVER have!" Well, I never said he did, but was pointing to the other two internet retailers. So, when I received a private email in which he asked me to apologize on the public forum, I think his email - in combination with his public post - lost the right the stay private and could justifiably be shared in public. If you think otherwise, so be it.

And yes, this is a coffee site. So, believe me, I am very much surprised, to say the least, in how easily and fast the sharing with you all about my experiences with a big conical developed in the present discussion. Certainly not my intention, understand that.

Therefore I say, let's go back to the one goal we all share: how can we improve on the quality of our coffee? For instance, by using a K10 and a LM single basket, the original thread (thanks for splitting, Dan).

Regards. Wilco