Living in the Shadow.

Thoughts from a lurker. I frequent CG and homeroaster sites. I read here (more than post) to learn; seldom can I contribute. I am comfortable in the coffee arena; the espresso world is a whole different animal for me.

Most posters here are much, much more knowledgeable than me but they are also more than willing to share their depth of experience. I will continue to remain in the shadow of the shadow because education occurs here and all posters are treated respectfully. Dan and the mods create that warm welcome mat and I for one appreciate the tone and demeanor that are maintained. Thank you.

B|Java

cafeIKE wrote:Anyone who finds H-B too technical or amateurish . . .

And that would include a good many of us, but it's also unimportant (to many of us).

I confess that I, too, get lost in some of the more highly technical aspects of some discussions, and the graphs largely leave this liberal arts graduate in the dust. But the conclusions do not, and that's what is important!

* * * * *

Two days from now, December 27th, will be my third anniversary of posting on HB. My 3rd anniversary of joining CG was December 9th. OK, so I've been a member of CG for eighteen days longer than HB; that's pretty much even in my book. Since day one, I've described myself as "an experienced newbie." I still think of myself in that way: I bought my first, true espresso machine (a La Pavoni Europiccola) in the mid-1970s. So, I have 30 years of experience, and I still have so much to learn. And (clearly) I was searching for answers and found CG and HB at roughly the same time. And yet I have made 900 posts (I think this one will be 901), compared to 495 on CG.

Why is that? Why have I posted more -- nearly twice as much -- on HB as I have on CG? It's all about the content, the level of content, of expertise, and where I can absorb the most amount of knowledge to benefit the quality of my espresso . . . and where I can "give back," where I can best contribute to others as others have contributed to me. I may joined CG first, but I obviously must have felt something was missing, as I sought out something else, something more.

I have never visited alt.coffee, but if it's anything like alt.food.wine, I'm pretty confident that I didn't miss much. In the early days of the internet, newsgroups were the Wild West. You could learn things on alt.food.wine, but you could also get "beat to $#!+." The rise of the web and of web-based discussion groups were a more civilized and ultimately more informative destination, regardless of one's prior knowledge. But there was the inevitable "shakeout." People (and sites) evolved (or died). Some sites thrived; others didn't.

I'm pretty good when it comes to wine. After all, I've had to learn something in the 45 years I've been tasting, learning and working with wine. But I know I have a lot to learn when it comes to espresso, despite my having come a long way from that Pavoni (paired with a Krups BLADE grinder, I'll have you know!)

I applaud CG's focus on coffee, period. Brewed or espresso, doesn't matter, CG will talk about it. (I'm still not sure about moka pots.) But I do find CG to be "more basic," which is fine -- CG does an excellent job for its target market, which is not the same as HB's market. Also, despite Mark's apparent reluctance to add new machines, I think that the Consumer Review section of CG is another one of its strengths: reading real people commenting on their own experiences with espresso machines, grinders, etc. -- regardless of their prior experience -- can be helpful to others.

But the detailed reviews ("Buyer's Guide to ________" or the details contained in something like the "Titan Grinder Project" and all of its various siblings) of HB are vital, informative, and fascinating even when the topic is not something the reader may think is interesting . . . at least initially. The first post captures the reader, regardless of the specific topic at hand, and you can't help but read it all the way through!

* * * * *

cafeIKE wrote:H-B feels just about perfect. Don't eff up a good thing.

Agreed.

Cheers,
Jason

And thanks, Dan, for putting up with me for three years!

Ken Fox wrote:Since you seem to be soliciting feedback, I'd like to give you some.

Consistent with the rest of the Overextracted threads, I wasn't. But since you already have, please do.

Ken Fox wrote:I think you have a blindspot when it comes to online conflict. There are various kinds of online conflict, some of which can be productive and others of which are simply noise, such as name calling and use of profanities. The latter sort are easily dispensed with and not to be tolerated, but what of the former?

My impression, and I don't think that I am alone in this, is that you are too quick on the trigger to end a potentially useful thread when you sense that things are "heating up." I think this is often in response to emails you receive from people who have thin skins and perceive themselves to have been offended.

For those new to the site, HB's Guidelines for productive online discussion define what's expected of forum participants. It isn't loaded with "don't do this" and "don't to that" rules. Almost four years and I'm happily surprised they've been enough. Now onto your comments:

Hosting a good discussion isn't easy. As you point out, prematurely ending passionate discourse risks cutting off breakthrough observations. Then again, allowing disagreements to boil into pissing matches tires readers and the moderators forced to clean up the mess.

This is a lesson I learned from years of moderating on CG, i.e., the closer you skirt the edges of civility, the more moderator intervention required. I have enormous respect for the time and talents of the gentlemen that are the force behind this site, Team HB. My arguably heavy-handed response to threads that are "heating up" is not only to encourage an overall civil tone, but also to avoid reducing these gentlemen to forum police. Their role is to lead discussions, not be board nannies. Moderator actions in the sense I handle on CG are nearly absent here. To the best of my knowledge, none of the HB moderators have had to handle more than one or two member issues during their entire tenure. That would be a slow week for moderators on CG.

Ken Fox wrote:My suggestion would be for you to figure out another way to deal with this issue than ending the threads or deleting posts, as this turns off some of your most potentially active and useful posters, the people who actually come up with topics that can turn into multipage threads.

I agree this area deserves thoughtful attention. Thanks for pointing out this weak spot in site management and your suggestions for addressing them. I will remember your comments the next time there's a flare up, just in case my reaction is more appropriate for our rambunctious boys ("That's enough! Give it to me and everyone go to your rooms!") than mature adults.

malachi wrote:I would hate to see HB become in any way "dumbed down". I find the articles and reviews of appropriate density and focus.

I'm not advocating dumbing down the content, it's offering readers signposts, motivation, and support material that keeps them engaged and encourages thinking beyond the immediate subject matter. For example, recent reviews include an advanced section on the Espresso Performance page with clear markers so the reader can decide whether to skip or read on without losing context. Sidebars are used in a few articles in the same fashion.

At one point some loyal sponsors were lobbying for more high entry level reviews, e.g., Rancilio Silvia class. I wasn't able to muster enthusiasm for the task, but said I'd think about it. Time passed and now the same sponsors are singing a different tune: Stick to the HB demographic. My worries of someday having to wax eloquently about the wonders of the latest Jura super-automatic are gone.

peacecup wrote:One thing I personally would like to see on HB is a more open attitude to newbies using cheap gear to make espresso, rather than telling them to buy a french press and grinder and wait till they have $1000 to spend.

I've said that, and wish somebody would have mentioned it to me years ago. My interest in espresso emerged during my years in Europe, so I was a "late bloomer" on fresh coffee / French press preparation. In retrospect, I think a few months with a really good grinder and some great coffees would have served me better in my early espresso years. In those days, I thought bitter espresso was meant to be tamed by milk and sugar. Had I known what really good coffee tasted like, I would have challenged anything less appealing in espresso.

TUS172 wrote:I know often when a new person to espresso machines comes to the forums on HB they are often told to go through the vast amount of detailed knowledge that is already here. Perhaps a more defined encyclopedia of knowledge could be developed?

I've toyed with a wiki. DaveC's coffee forum uses one effectively, either for original copy or repurposing forum content. My main concern was keeping the quality of the content in a wiki on par with the site's articles, under the assumption that site articles would be converted to wiki format to "seed" the content. Instead I decided to invest my time in optimizing the forum content, hence the dynamically generated FAQs and Favorites, the related topics at the bottom of each thread, announcements / quotable quotes, and blazing fast search engine. A wiki may be in HB's future, if the effort it would require were reasonable. Wikipedia gets an incalculable amount of free editor oversight; I'm not sure if there are enough espresso enthusiasts with the skills, motivation, and time to support a dedicated espresso wiki of the same caliber.

Closing thoughts.

I've read the comments above and sincerely appreciate the kind words. It's been a fun time and a lot of work, but work that I've enjoyed. Collaborating with the team and the online community has been the best part; my espresso journey would have been boring without HB. Over the years, there's been a couple times when I've thought "we've peaked, there's only one direction to go from here". And yet new highs followed like the TGP. The same thought still crosses my mind from time-to-time, but who knows, 2009 could be the best year ever.

Despite all the kind words above, I have to admit that I'm surprised. First, I'm surprised by the heartfelt accolades. More significantly, I'm surprised by the lack of criticism. Judging from the commenters to Mark's article, I expected a few lashes. Not that I'm spoiling for a fight, but I know from my years as an author of technical books that frequently the most helpful suggestions come from the most brutal peer reviewers. At first I thought such reviewers were simply born critics and felt justified in setting their lambasting aside (i.e., employing the rationalization that it's far easier to criticize than create). However, after the 10th or 20th time, I learned to look past the vitriol and see the validity of their arguments. Ironically the comments from "nice" reviewers usually offered few suggestions for improvement.

Ken, to be clear, I am definitely not asking for feedback on the above point. Let's save that for another thread and another day, shall we?

HB wrote:Closing thoughts.
Despite all the kind words above, I have to admit that I'm surprised. First, I'm surprised by the heartfelt accolades. More significantly, I'm surprised by the lack of criticism. Judging from the commenters to Mark's article, I expected a few lashes. Not that I'm spoiling for a fight, but I know from my years as an author of technical books that frequently the most helpful suggestions come from the most brutal peer reviewers. At first I thought such reviewers were simply born critics and felt justified in setting their lambasting aside (i.e., employing the rationalization that it's far easier to criticize than create). However, after the 10th or 20th time, I learned to look past the vitriol and see the validity of their arguments. Ironically the comments from "nice" reviewers usually offered few suggestions for improvement.

Sounds as if you've been hardened by those who use the internet and emails to viscously attack without regard to the human factor... I witnessed this type of crap for years in a huge bureaucracy. I look at the comments above and see a maturity factor beyond accolades and lack of criticism. Criticism can be made clear without the vitriol and lambasting sought by the immature in wanting to get the last jab in an argument. How many days have you given this thread for more answers/criticisms? Perhaps if you advertised it through out the site with a more direct title you would get some more definitive direction.

TUS172 wrote:How many days have you given this thread for more answers/criticisms?

It wasn't my intent to solicit feedback. I think a thread like "Project proposals for 2009" with specific plans for others to comment on would be more useful. For now our list includes the incomplete work from the last two years (e.g., Titan Grinder Project writeup, site upgrade plans, and drafts of several articles) and proposed "themes" for this year.

HB wrote:For now our list includes.... proposed "themes" for this year.

l like the opening theme to Southpark!

HB wrote:Despite all the kind words above, I have to admit that I'm surprised. First, I'm surprised by the heartfelt accolades. More significantly, I'm surprised by the lack of criticism. Judging from the commenters to Mark's article, I expected a few lashes. Not that I'm spoiling for a fight, but I know from my years as an author of technical books that frequently the most helpful suggestions come from the most brutal peer reviewers.

Face up to it, Dan: you're doing a great job.

Lack of brutal comments? I guess you'll just have to learn to live with the disappointment.

HB wrote:First, I'm surprised by the heartfelt accolades.

You shouldn't be. You run a fine establishment and you keep a fine rein on what is allowed/barred. I've watched the rise/decline of the newsgroups and feel that without moderation, the content suffers. HB is a place where I feel a kinship with other espresso devotees. I've come a long way from my Krups coffee toys -> Francis!Francis X5 -> Anita -> Elektra T1. I can either blame HB or praise them for this.

I sincerely wish you (Dan) and HB a Happy New Year and many more to come.

Mark

PS: I too started at CG at about the same time, but the technical knowledge of the HB members swung me over to this site. Along with the snappy page repaints.