MDL wrote:I find the HB is much more valuable to me than CG. If a thread or post is too technical I skim over the parts that I don't find necessary to me, but it is great to have the information there.

Funny you should mention that. I used the same theory for the few manuals I have written. I always figure it is better to give too much information than too little, at least if it is organized so that the information needed can be found easily. If one that way, the manual becomes a long-term reference rather than just a quick-start to be filed away, never to be referenced again.

I find the "Living in the shadow" title interesting as it would seem to imply that you feel the HB is somehow the child of CG. Personally I think I found HB first and while I watch the roasting section on CG to offer support for BehmorThing when it occasionally comes up, besides that the speed or more correctly, the lack of speed at CG keeps me far away. HB is currently the only forum I frequent as it almost always causes me to think about coffee and the tools I use to roast and brew it. And while it might be considered elitist, I kind of figure if it's not at least occasionally adding to my knowledge than what's the point.

So, from my perspective, you're doing a really good job here. If for no other reason than you've provided a place where the good people have chosen to stay. The classic problem with a forum that I've seen, is when the influx of beginners gets high enough and the percentage of questions that have already been asked gets high enough, the really good people move on and then the growth of knowledge slows and while the traffic might go up and the revenues to the owner might go up, the original point of the forum goes away.

So I commend you for doing a terrific job of keeping this place focused and healthy.

Ira

As a regular lurker and infrequent poster over the past 3-4 years this board has been a phenomenal resource for my espresso education. Just today I wanted to adjust the pressure stat on my cimbali Jr. I punched in a few terms into the search bar and voila numerous posts and pics (perfectly shot) guided me in the right direction. Now the cimbali sings a sweeter song. If it were not for the level of skill, passion and dedication that the regular posters on this site possess I would not be having nearly as much fun as I'm having with this hobby. I find the information I've acquired here helps filter out the noise I hear when I'm around the 'professional' crowd, be they barista, roaster, sales rep, etc. Keep up the good work Dan and Co. As I'm not a coffee geek member or regular reader I have nothing to say about that, except apparently it was started here in my home town by some guy.
seasons greetings all, Ian

Personally, I enjoy HB tremendously, even though I still consider my self a beginner with an undeveloped palate. I enjoy the discussions, even the controversy. I also like CG, though not as much. However, CG has good info on roasting and other brew methods.

I also love the forum software here. Much better than any other forum I follow.

On parallel note, for the first time in at least six months I lurked over to alt.coffee just to see what was happening over there. It's not as bad as it was when I left... it's worse... quite a bit worse. Makes me very glad that HB is here. Anyone who thinks that the HB moderators are heavy handed should spend a month over there. It is shocking what one or maybe two anti-social people can do to an unmoderated group... it's sad, really.

I've heard that all of usenet is dead, not just a.c. I believe that David Bogie said that to me in Boise when we met up a month ago. I think he used to participate in a number of other groups covering other interests and what has happened to a.c. has more or less happened to all of them.

The internet, for better or worse, has basically killed off usenet.

ken

alt.coffee's current state makes me sick...

HB and CG is where its at for me.

Dan

Merry Christmas and thank you for taking all the time and effort to make this a good place to learn and to contribute when possible.

I frequent both sites though more this one lately. As a scientist I appreciate the technical details and chemisty involved in trying to make great coffee and espresso. I like the detail. As part of my work almost a decade ago I had to hire an engineer to design a robot and laser scanner to make and use some of our DNA chips and my interactions with him highlight differences in thinking between engineers and biologists and chemists. He always laughs at some of our experimetal observations as being "close enough for biology" and I look in at the measurements of coffee dosing, digital scales vs eyeballs and volume as "good enough for good coffee" (some of the time)

It's a big (coffee) world out there and there is room enough for all to prosper and learn what works for us. Keep up the good work here.

Partial:

HB wrote:The site has always targeted the serious espresso enthusiast. HB would not succeed if it were a "mini CG". In my opinion, the demographic split has worked out nicely for both sites - Mark focuses on the mainstream coffee lover, we focus on the so-called hardcore espresso crowd. Life in the shadows is not without its advantages. CG serves the masses and Mark clearly enjoys the media adulation; we get down to business. Everyone wins.

That said, there's always the risk of too much of a good thing. I take the critiques of the commenters' to Mark's column seriously since it's something I've worked on in my professional career for years: Explaining a problem and solution such that the newbie understands and the seasoned veteran isn't bored. The trick is addressing the audience at multiple levels, alternating between basic foundation and advanced topics, sometimes within the same paragraph. If you do it right, both readers will finish what you've said and say "Right, I get it" or "That's a good point, but did he forget about ...?" thereby leading the discussion to the next point at the next level.

It's a style that I encourage and one that I believe is the cornerstone of this site's success. When I hear comments that we're elitist or obsessed with pricey gear, I worry we've lost focus of the key to what makes this site unique. This is not to suggest I want to downgrade; no, I'm suggesting a bit of balance. With the big projects like the TGP under our belts, we're overdue to investigate superior but down-to-earth alternatives and the results will be taken seriously because we've established a track record. I've raised this point several times with Team HB, but their buy-in isn't strong. You know, boys and their toys. Some want to investigate 380V three-phase espresso grinders. What next? A PID'd Silvia with Speedster backup?

I have purposefully not read any comments past this one so that I could have a genuinely personal response.
I wholeheartedly agree that this site is more for the serious enthusiast... But I have seldom seen the newcomer shunned.
Dan, you as the Host have the intimate data that would answer questions such as subscriber and new hits to the site? Then if there is true room for concern: appropriate leads to some other alternative threads or more laid back forums and input is certainly entertainable welcome by this HBer. I personally have made a home here and have seldom wanted to go to other sites for my online communications with like minded espresso enthusiasts.
Has anyone on HB ever seriously or aggressively commented or critiqued CG... I have never seen it. Although I admit I have until very recently stuck to the Lever Forum (My Passion).
I have never been one that has taken others opinions very seriously because they are seldom worth the worry. Whether opinions are outwardly expressed or inwardly felt they often come with some sort of prejudice. I would think no differently of CG's thread.
Perhaps some posts in various threads do get carried away... Such as the 3-phase comments I have also seen... (What it takes to get 3 phase into a residence!???) are pretty extreme, but I skimmed them for entertainment value and went on.
I know often when a new person to espresso machines comes to the forums on HB they are often told to go through the vast amount of detailed knowledge that is already here. Perhaps a more defined encyclopedia of knowledge could be developed? Just a shot in the dark... I have no idea of what that would entail. But I wonder how many of the critiques of this site have come here to research their questions and quandaries? Because they know the vast amount of expertise that resides within HB.
I won't go on anymore because these comments may already have been made... And again they are opinions. All I know is that this is my home for many personal reasons... The most important being the people that frequent this site. I truly enjoy the truly courteous, kind and helpful people that are at home here.

peacecup wrote:One thing I personally would like to see on HB is a more open attitude to newbies using cheap gear to make espresso, rather than telling them to buy a french press and grinder and wait till they have $1000 to spend. I've always meant to start a "real espresso for under $200" thread, but I just never seem to get to it.
Well, happy holidays to all the HBs and looking forward to the new year, PC

Hey I still got a couple of rebuilt Gaggia Coffees out in the shop... I would not be opposed to adding them to a store of lend outs for people to try out... Gaggia coffee machines are by no means top notch but they are where I started out after a brief and unpalatable experience with a Salton steam machine. Just an idea...