I'm a lurker and I love HB. I also suspect that most of HB's visitors/members have a story/profile similar to mine; here it is: I started my espresso hobby a few years ago and, back then (~2004?), CG was my browser's most visited site and I would visit HB only thru specific links to specific content; to me, at that time, the stuff on HB was a bit too "out there". A couple years later (~2006?), CG and HB had equal share of my online time, CG helps me tweak and confirm my basics while HB excites me. But for a while now (Q2 2008?), HB is my most visited site and I only scan CG, along with other sites, for interesting discussions 2-3 times a week...usually not finding any.

If more discussions of the Speedster and roast profiling keep on coming here, that routine will continue

Nowadays, no site other than HB, not CG, not Coffeed, not AC, not CS, not TMC, none of these have many interesting enough threads to open, let alone read thoroughly. I'm not saying the threads there are no good, it's just that they don't interest me anymore. Again, I suspect this is the eventual profile of many people who embrace espresso as a hobby.

Besides the above, and what I'll quote below, I think there's one more thing to highlight. I noticed that, lately (a few months), CG has A LOT of "basic" threads, say 90% of the time, while it used to be something like 60% or so a year or two ago. The same "increase in basic thread" trend is also happening here, to a much lesser extent though...something like 30% while it used to be 15%.

My personal conclusion is that the numbers of new espresso hobbyists are rapidly increasing and they're choosing CG first, their local sites (CS etc) second then HB third and AC never! This is making the new "interesting threads", and the people who make them, move to HB...law of attraction? What I hope would happen is that HB will continue attracting mostly the ultra geeks, the gurus and the espresso fanatics. That's probably isn't the largest segment or the fastest growing, but it sure is the most interesting and the longest lasting.

I'm not sure I wrote what I wanted to say very well, but I gave it a shot

Now to things that are actually worth quoting

A2chromepeacock wrote:Dan, it's silly to say, perhaps--but your site and this community is a source of much happiness for me. It's limitless amount of adult "enthusiast" learning and espresso excitement makes it a treasured spot on the internet. Keep up the great work, introspection and all.

Amen!

Ken Fox wrote:I think this website is the only worthwhile site for the serious home espresso enthusiast.

So true.

Like Jim I've recently made the change in approach to "its about the coffee" and nothing else. I'll admit it has made me more cynical and pointed with the basic discussions but I do believe they serve a purpose too. Everyone is at different place in their journey we've all started on the basics and then moved up in skill and abilities.

CG clearly has a wealth of folks just starting and the discussion trends show that. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it is what it is. I've been on CG for quite a while now and love it for what it is. When I want to talk a broad range of coffee topics I hit CG. When I want to help someone new that is just starting out most times it on CG. I'm okay with that and I suspect its because I come here for my "over the top" in depth advanced discussions. CG does a great service in bringing folks into our wonderful hobby surely, but HB clearly takes it to the next level.

But I don't think its anything that the administrators do or don't do. How much can they really drive content? Yes they can guide discussions but they certainly can't influence content too much. They do foster the atmosphere that brings out the discussions, but really I can't blame or credit the demographics on admistration practices. Its about the atmosphere for discussion. This site has an atmosphere of advanced espresso topics thanks to the core group (Jim, Ken, Dan, Chris Tacy ETC*) that drive the discussions and were most likely here in the beginning to start things out in "advanced mode."

Like I said the 2 sites compliment each other in my opinion. Dan I don't think you compete at all, you offer different things for different folks. Team H-B's current focus is working, don't fix it because its not broken.

*there are a long, long list of names here. Many friends I've surely left out, my apologies, just making an example

HB has got a great thing going! It is a haven for people who are passionate about espresso and the machinery that makes espresso!

HB wrote:Later he [Mark Prince] shares his friends' opinions of HB articles. Many are openly critical, saying they're too technical, amateurish in layout, too long and boring.

Yes, HB threads are technical and somewhat-amateurish-looking, both at the same time. The website is mostly powered by non-professionals who have a love for espresso and the equipment. That's one of the greatest aspects HB - it gives amateurs a platform to share their knowledge with others and to gain from others' knowledge.

HB also provides a sense of community (OK, maybe call it a "cyber community"). Where else can you go and find people who understand your passion about espresso? When I talk to friends and colleagues, in depth, about espresso or espresso machines, they can sometimes give me strange looks!

From a business and advertising standpoint, HB also seems to do well. It provides a place for interaction between consumers and retailers. The Christmas contest and the marketplace forums are examples of this. Plus, the reviews and discussions about products have a built-in "peer-review" system in place which helps keep things honest.

Let's keep it going strong and have more fun, informative, and challenging posts in 2009 than ever before!

Like many of us here on the H-B information highway I was a Krups baby a few short years ago. Here I have been given the information to grow in my love of good coffee and great machines. This site gives a great deal of information to a person at any level of coffee enjoyment. I started by collecting machines and came to love good coffees. I have learned to fix and refurbish old and new machines. Thanks to those folks whose shoulders on which I stand; I am able to share a little of that knowledge with guys and gals that are just starting out. I have found that I learn more about what I like with every posted question.
H-B is a unique spot on the internet and cannot be all things to all people but it surely satisfies many. The format as it is, does cover basics where folks like me answer the simple questions and the Iconoclasts answer the hard stuff.

This is a spot where the gear heads such as my self can come to play and all learn what's inside the machines. The photos and essays of machine rebuilds, and wonderful "one offs" can give a person a really good idea of how to fix, and where to find, for their own machines.

May I point out that H-B is often linked in coffee sites around the world for great correct information and sourcing of parts. That would not happen if it had not achieved the position of excellence it enjoys.

Lastly, it behooves us all to protect the freedom of all to post and learn. I do not have the verbal skills to deal with unseemly behavior and I thank the moderators for keeping a clean site. They can take care of the obstreperous and crass, we can enjoy the information. Surely those of use who have gained so much can kindly send a person to a previous post or FAQ without causing a possible future contributor to feel dumb or retarded in their development. Sometimes a reply of the requested information may be a good thing as I, for one, forget where I saw some information or perhaps it has become outdated.

Merry Christmas to All!
Sincerely
-Richard
PS much of this must of been posted since I started this answer but I am posting it anyway. Where else but H-B?

jamhat wrote: Yes, HB threads are technical and somewhat-amateurish-looking, both at the same time. The website is mostly powered by non-professionals who have a love for espresso and the equipment. That's one of the greatest aspects HB - it gives amateurs a platform to share their knowledge with others and to gain from others' knowledge.

Rather than "amateurish," I'd choose another descriptor such as "unfinished," or a "work in progress" appearance. A lot of ideas germinate here and sometimes they can be fleshed out and other times they remain more of the nature of a line of thought, an opinion, that can't be verified. But, at least people here are creative and consider other options rather than just reciting preconceived notions as dogma.

The only other (English language) site that I know of that ever has authoritative discussions is coffeed, however most of those seem to just be recitations of received knowledge given from on high, that one is supposed to accept as given truth because of who it is that is saying it (largely cafe owners).

In my view, most of the open-minded and intelligent thought regarding espresso gets expressed here.

ken

So HB has out-geeked CoffeeGeek -- suits me just fine!

Carry on, mad scientists!

I find the HB is much more valuable to me than CG. If a thread or post is too technical I skim over the parts that I don't find necessary to me, but it is great to have the information there.

HB provides me with much more information that I can use to improve my shots and to think about equipment to move to (I anticipate that my grinder is going to expire after close to 20 years).

Keep it up HB
Mark

Anyone who finds H-B too technical or amateurish has never tried to divine the performance specs of an electronic component from a 3rd generation FAX of a 4th generation photocopy of a hand drawn diagram annotated in Kanji.

H-B feels just about perfect. Don't eff up a good thing.

In my business (natural science, namely ecology) its very easy to spread one's self too thin. There are so many interesting questions that its always tempting to ask a new one before the old one is answered. How does this relate?

It would be easy for Dan et al to take on too many reviews, projects, etc. in the name of trying to learn more and improve what we know as espresso. With the exception of very few posts on HB, that's what I've always seen - people sharing their experiences as to what espresso is. Most of you are already tired of hearing what espresso is to me, although I do try to keep an open mind - i.e. I've been interested in the Dalla Corte lately, despite the fact that it has a pump!

My suggestion is just keep doing as much as the same as you feel comfortable with. If it feels stale, mix it up, but for my taste I very seldom look at CG. This, despite the fact that I have really enjoyed Mark Prince's articles, and have found the user ratings on CG interesting.

One thing I personally would like to see on HB is a more open attitude to newbies using cheap gear to make espresso, rather than telling them to buy a french press and grinder and wait till they have $1000 to spend. I've always meant to start a "real espresso for under $200" thread, but I just never seem to get to it.

Well, happy holidays to all the HBs and looking forward to the new year,

PC

peacecup wrote:One thing I personally would like to see on HB is a more open attitude to newbies using cheap gear to make espresso, rather than telling them to buy a french press and grinder and wait till they have $1000 to spend. I've always meant to start a "real espresso for under $200" thread, but I just never seem to get to

Why not while the holidays are giving a bit of free time?? Now??
I would start with an old DeLonghi EC35b or equivalent stainless boiler machine. Very simple but, with practice, it works well. Add a hand grinder. espresso! ( first mod is to have an extra switch to cut the heater when the brew light goes on. It takes a long star driver to disassemble the case cover. bad is no 3way sneeze valve.)
Cheers
-Richard