Extract Mojo and VST baskets, a perspective from a professional, daily user - Page 5

Top · by **da gino** on Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:15 am

To build on Dick's excellent post a few pages back urging civility, HB is one of my favorite websites because there is such a large quantity of useful information about espresso on here and generally a very mature atmosphere where people post their opinions and interesting perspectives on espresso. Many of the most interesting posts I have read are by Jim and Andy and the best book I've ever seen on espresso is Scott's, so I highly respect the opinions on coffee of people on both sides. I don't always agree with anyone on the board, but I certainly respect people on both sides and have learned from them. I'm interested in what people like or dislike about a given product such as the VST baskets. I urge an open discussion conducted in as scientific a manner as possible (as all three people mentioned above tend to follow in their writing), but I also urge people to discuss the products and instead of each other. One of the things that makes HB so great is the high quality writing, the community, and the fact that we do not have to weed through lots of off topic content to get to valuable information. Let's keep it that way.

If what you believe can be proven right it won't matter very much if someone else says something that is wrong. The coffee freezing study is a good example. There is a strong bias against freezing coffee, but the study was done very well and most HB posters read it, tried it, and were able to verify if it worked for them or not. The open and scientific approach to what some considered almost a taboo subject was verifiable to my taste and it changed the way I order and drink coffee. This is the whole point of the scientific method.

I'll close by mentioning that the thread that was deleted was a surprise to me because it was the very reason that I decided to order a VST basket and see for myself what I thought about it (although I agree the title could have been improved). It is in the mail as I post this so I don't have an opinion one way or the other on the baskets yet.

Top · by **cafeIKE** on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:40 pm

Back on Topic : EM
Today when I ground the Chupacabra, frozen two weeks, effective age 7 days, it literally exploded with blueberries. Exactly how would the EM tell me that to capture that in the cup, I should drop the temperature a degree and reduce the dose by ½g?

da gino wrote:I'll close by mentioning that the thread that was deleted was a surprise to me because it was the very reason that I decided to order a VST basket and see for myself what I thought about it

Precisely the point of my earlier DELETED post : Fedele & co would do well to recall Behan
For the internet generation : Brendan Behan : "There's no bad publicity except an obituary"

16+ pages and innumberable thousands of views on a premier world espresso site.
They should have sent flowers.

da gino wrote:(although I agree the title could have been improved).

Perhaps "VST Baskets : Nice QC"
There are several claims that are not readily verified with published data or contradict decades of user experience :

uniform extractions - Jim's study has shown that the baskets are less uniform with slight variations in dose. Chris a Robur class grinder to benefit. Andy a 58.4mm [curved or flat?] tamper. These factors may conspire to make shots less uniform on a busy bar, hindering rather than helping the targeted professional.
less sediment - cup sediment is coffee dependent, appearing a couple of times per annum. Changing baskets has never altered sediment. Changing coffee always has.
extract ristretto, normale, lungo with minimal or no grind change and a fixed dose - unless one redefines the terms as time variables, the same grind with the same dose will produce the same shot.
anti-wear design - the baskets are fabricated by essentially the same process as 'standard' baskets with additional finishing. Wear is dependent on the quality of the material and the grinding medium [coffee] applied to the orifices. There is no mention of any material difference other than thickness. Thickness is irrelevant with a 'conical' orifice. Smaller orifices wear faster.

Top · by **malachi** on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:20 pm

cafeIKE wrote:There are several claims that are not readily verified with published data or contradict decades of user experience :
uniform extractions - Jim's study has shown that the baskets are less uniform with slight variations in dose. Chris a Robur class grinder to benefit. Andy a 58.4mm [curved or flat?] tamper. These factors may conspire to make shots less uniform on a busy bar, hindering rather than helping the targeted professional.
less sediment - cup sediment is coffee dependent, appearing a couple of times per annum. Changing baskets has never altered sediment. Changing coffee always has.
extract ristretto, normale, lungo with minimal or no grind change and a fixed dose - unless one redefines the terms as time variables, the same grind with the same dose will produce the same shot.
anti-wear design - the baskets are fabricated by essentially the same process as 'standard' baskets with additional finishing. Wear is dependent on the quality of the material and the grinding medium [coffee] applied to the orifices. There is no mention of any material difference other than thickness. Thickness is irrelevant with a 'conical' orifice. Smaller orifices wear faster.

malachi wrote:I feel like 90% of the discussion on this topic is from folks who, as you put it, "don't have anywhere near the data set required to even have a strong opinion much less a conclusion."

Top · by HB on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:04 pm

cafeIKE wrote:Precisely the point of my earlier DELETED post

Please recall that I asked nicely in Removal of VST Filter Basket thread:

HB wrote:Finally, per the site's admonishment to stay on topic and in recognition of the potential legal issues surrounding Mr. Fedele's request, I respectfully request that members treat this matter as closed. Thank you.

Several members including myself have politely requested the incivility cease in this thread. Please respect these requests. Otherwise, don't complain if your posts are deleted without warning. Sorry for being so blunt, but we've already had too many inflammatory remarks in this thread.

Those who have questions/concerns about this decision are welcome to contact me offline. Thanks.

Top · by **boar_d_laze** on Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:19 pm

Maybe we should take stock before moving on.

What I see is this:

I. Jim observed that the net, positive efficacy of VST baskets has been the subject of debate. Jim analyzed the hypothesis that VST baskets might or might not make a difference, by performing an empirical survey which was a little too disciplined to be thought of as "casual," but not nearly complete enough to be thought of as anything more than suggestive. Jim's survey size was not large enough to be amenable to a statistical analysis (and bless him, he didn't try). The conclusions were limited both as to explanatory and predictive utility, but clearly stated. The study was transparent and easily reproduced by anyone who cares to do so.

II. Scott said the study was incomplete because Jim failed to use a particular type of analysis. I don't recall Scott offering an hypothesis as to what such an analysis might show, nor recall that he offered to perform the analysis himself as part of a similar or expanded "experiment;" as far as I know no one else has either; but I could have missed the offers through lack of attention.

III. Even though the sulfurous aroma of old grievance lingers, and a great many of us bristle when we're not immediately acknowledged as the smartest person in any given room, everyone here is very nice, very sincere and very earnest; we intend to get along; but are only human.

IV. A favored few, but not many, have the scintilla of a scent of an inkling of an iota of a clue as to what "scientific method" is; but many suspect it has something to do with ever more accurate measurement. Some of us have an unfortunate predilection for sarcasm.

Is this missing anything important?

BDL

Top · by **the_trystero** on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:13 pm

Yes, you're missing Jim's nostalgic use of PLONK! Ah, the days of Usenet.

I'm sorry to see so much acrimony between people I've quickly come to respect in my short time here on HB. Anyway, I wrote a bunch of stuff and decided it won't help so I'll keep it at that.

Top · by **Anvan** on Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:50 am

cafeIKE wrote:Today when I ground the Chupacabra, frozen two weeks, effective age 7 days, it literally exploded with blueberries.

That must've been something to see!

What a mess: "...and there's blueberries all over the kitchen in Sector Ike..."

Aw, maybe you just meant "figuratively" - would'a been a lot less to clean up, but not nearly as much fun to imagine.

Top · by **cafeIKE** on Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:07 pm

Top · by **Anvan** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:39 pm

[Now where again was that thread about getting the lower burr bolt off the shaft when you need secondary cleaning...?]


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