Espresso recommendation for Orange County, California

by **cruiten** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:44 pm

Can anyone recommend someplace in the Orange County, California, area where my wife and I could
experience a wonderful espresso?

We continue to enjoy the fruits of our Gaggia Synchrony Logic over the last two-and-a-half years, and I have recently started home roasting, but I am really interested in tasting what is possible from the hands of a skilled barista.

Thank you very much,

Cor

by **Psyd** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:35 pm

cruiten wrote:Can anyone recommend someplace in the Orange County, California, area where my wife and I could experience a wonderful espresso?

My money is on Kean Coffee in Newport Beach. I only know directions by bicycle from Fashion Circle, though...
Ride north along the PCH until you cross the 'bay' (a small inlet) and then turn right. Go to the top of the hill and take a left, drive until you see a strip mall on the right, look for Kean on the other side of the street.
Worth every pedal up that hill...

by **RegulatorJohnson** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:43 pm

directions are by bike , but you say to "drive"

:roll:

hehehe...

cheers

by **scjavadr** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:42 pm

I was going to say Kean Coffee too. There's also a second shop in Tustin. (http://www.keancoffee.com/).

If you're up for a drive to San Dimas, there's Klatch (http://www.klatchroasting.com/).

I would love to see more shops.

Greg

by **shadowfax** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:44 pm

If I lived anywhere near Los Angeles, Intelligentsia's Venice Coffeebar would be on the top of my list.

Intellivenice seems like the hotrod of coffeeshops.

by **Psyd** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:31 pm

RegulatorJohnson wrote:directions are by bike , but you say to "drive"

It's a synonym. Ride, drive, whatever. For me, riding is the part from the hotel on Fashion Circle to the bottom of PCH at the 'bay... (hold on, I'm gonna googlemap it)... and then up Dover whatsit. 'Then 'drive' kicks in. In any case, it's the onliest 'real' coffee shop that was available when I went. I've heard that there are a couple more, including the new Kean.

by **Marshall** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:45 pm

cruiten wrote:We continue to enjoy the fruits of our Gaggia Synchrony Logic over the last two-and-a-half years, and I have recently started home roasting, but I am really interested in tasting what is possible from the hands of a skilled barista.

Uh, you remember what happened when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Proceed with caution.

If you visit Kean or any of the L.A. County shops mentioned here, be prepared to come away with an entirely different impression of your Synchrony coffees. This could lead to spending ridiculous amounts of money, trying to recreate your coffee bar experience at home.

by **wideawake** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:52 pm

shadowfax wrote:If I lived anywhere near Los Angeles, Intelligentsia's Venice Coffeebar would be on the top of my list.

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Intellivenice seems like the hotrod of coffeeshops.

I'm a bit underwhelmed by that layout. This is an idea that has been hyped for a long time, and they seem to have just re-created the bar at what looks to be a college night-club. Except that they serve coffee, and it's opened during daytime.
This looks like it will just cause confusion and be off-putting to the general public. Not to be a downer, but I'm not sure the emperor is wearing any clothes.

by **Marshall** on Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:17 pm

wideawake wrote:This looks like it will just cause confusion and be off-putting to the general public. Not to be a downer, but I'm not sure the emperor is wearing any clothes.

There is no confusion. You stand in one line until a barista comes up to walk you to his/her station.

The real questions are:

1. Can this system handle high volumes (long lines) efficiently?

2. Will potential customers be put off by having bleacher-style seating, instead of tables and chairs?

I don't know the answer to either question. I was there during the first week, when the line was short, and we were almost immediately escorted to our barista's station. After our macchiatos, Chris Owen invited us to the brew bar, and made us a siphon coffee.

I liked the no-table seating, but that's because I like anything that discourages laptops.

As for "the general public," they haven't been seen in Venice in 60 years.

by **wideawake** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:01 am

It reminds me of the newly remodeled Apple store near me. They got rid of the cash registers and the purchasing counter, so now you wander around looking for somebody to swipe your CC on their handheld device. It's slower, confusing and feels awkward standing there without a counter.

I still think the whole thing looks like a solution in search of a problem.

by **Marshall** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:47 am

wideawake wrote:It reminds me of the newly remodeled Apple store near me. They got rid of the cash registers and the purchasing counter, so now you wander around looking for somebody to swipe your CC on their handheld device. It's slower, confusing and feels awkward standing there without a counter.

I still think the whole thing looks like a solution in search of a problem.

As I said, you don't wander. You stand in line, as in any coffee bar, and a barista takes the first person to his/her station. There is a counter and machine for each barista, and the barista can adjust the counter to the height that is most comfortable for him/her. No confusion. No awkwardness.

The only similarity to an Apple store is that the barista has a handheld device to enter your order and print out the bill.

The "problem" that is solved is the pressure of people standing immediately behind you, when you want to ask more questions about the available blends, origins and brewing methods. The barista can have an intelligent and informative conversation with the customer, as a sommelier does in a fine restaurant. Education takes place, because the customer doesn't feel pressured to order quickly and move on.

by **dsc** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:17 am

Hi guys,

The "problem" that is solved is the pressure of people standing immediately behind you, when you want to ask more questions about the available blends, origins and brewing methods. The barista can have an intelligent and informative conversation with the customer, as a sommelier does in a fine restaurant. Education takes place, because the customer doesn't feel pressured to order quickly and move on.

I'm curious how much people actually ask intelligent questions and how many simply order coffee. Other things on my mind:

- what's the ratio of orders of milk based drinks and espresso/black coffee (siphon, drip, whatever)

- have they done any research of what 'normal' people think regarding the layout? I know it's ok for the majority of people here (coffee geeks), but how much of their clientèle is actually formed by people like us?

- those two questions already mentioned my Marshall, efficiency and the 'strange' look/feel of the insides

I'm also curious how many customers they get daily at the moment. I've heard that the open party was quite crowded and that there's a lot of hype about this place, so I'm guessing it shouldn't be too bad, right?

Regards,
dsc.

by **Phaelon56** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:15 pm

Now that there appear to be two topics I'll reply to both.

a) I've been to Kean's several times. Once about six months after they opened - great espresso and cappa that time. Revisited in March of this year and although the cappa and macchiato both very good I was underwhelmed by the straight espresso. I specially requested it "for here" but was served a shot in a small paper cup and it had an extremely thin layer of crema that was very short-lived. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on that as I like the way they do business and my other drinks there have been good but I was surprised and a bit disappointed by the espresso.

b) Intelly Venice Beach is, to my way of thinking, an experiment and will either be a work in progress or serve as a pioneering model for a new paradigm of coffee and espresso retailing. Time will tell and the capability to handle large volume without producing long wait times will be a key to whether this model can succeed or will have to be modified. Sunset Junction can handle very large volume efficiently and with moderate wait times. Won't know about the new place until it gets shaken out and fully tested. But I remain curious as well as anxious to visit.

by **Marshall** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Phaelon56 wrote:a) I've been to Kean's several times. Once about six months after they opened - great espresso and cappa that time. Revisited in March of this year and although the cappa and macchiato were both very good I was underwhelmed by the straight espresso. I specially requested it "for here" but was served a shot in a small paper cup and it had an extremely thin layer of cream that was very short-lived. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on that as I like the way they do business and my other drinks there have been good but I was surprised and a bit disappointed by the espresso.

It's especially frustrating when a shop that knows better does that.

by **cruiten** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:45 pm

First of all, thanks for all the great information; I really appreciate everyone's input.

I ended up stopping by Kean's in Tustin on the way home from work last night because it is fairly close to where I work. As I walked in to the store my eyes immediately focused on the beautiful bean roaster in the corner; we are off to a good start...

I ordered my espresso and asked that it be served in a "real" cup; I was gently reassured by the person taking my order that my espresso would be served in a "real" cup with a "real" saucer. In addition, he let me know that I was going to enjoy my coffee thanks to the roasting skills of the person behind me... I looked behind me and was pleasantly surprised to see Martin Diedrich sitting at a table drinking some coffee while chatting with some patrons; pretty cool...

I sat down at a table and before long the barista called my name to let me know that my espresso was ready. I thanked him, took the coffee, sat down and took in the wonderful fragrance of the contents of my cup. I took my first sip and was surprised by the harsh initial taste of the espresso as it entered and moved around in my mouth; I put the cup down and quickly noticed that the initial harsh taste gave way to a nice full-bodied aftertaste that lingered in my mouth. I have to be honest though, that initial overpowering wave of "sharp" and bitter tastes was a bit of a turn-off, despite the subsequent progression of "round" flavors.

I wonder if I went into this store with expectations that were too high. I guess that you could say that I was expecting the heavens to open up with harp music in the background as I took that first magical sip...

Here are some of the thoughts that are going through my head about last night's experience:

Has my Gaggia Synchrony Logic corrupted my taste buds?
Did I receive a sub-par espresso?
Did I receive a great espresso, but my taste buds didn't realize that I did?

Ultimately, the crux of last night's experience for me was whether I fully enjoyed the prepared drink. It could very well be that I "should" have enjoyed it, but my taste buds informed me that last night they enjoyed the home roasted Liquid Amber blend from Sweet Maria's from my Gaggia Synchrony Logic more...

Having said all this, I will be back at Kean's for another taste... Maybe a macchiatto from the Newport Beach location next time...

Cor

by **Marshall** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:57 pm

Espresso is a powerful flavor experience. Too powerful for some people's palates. Whether that is genetic or learned, I don't know. What I do know is that some very experienced palates, who roast some of the best espressos in the world prefer a little milk in the cup: a traditional macchiato.

So, my suggestion would be to order one next time. (Or wallop your palate a few more times with straight espressos and see if you begin to enjoy them.)

P.S. The roasting machine you saw is made by Martin's brother, Stephan. Martin and Stephan grew up together in the family coffee business; http://www.diedrichroasters.com/history.html

by **cruiten** on Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:40 pm

Marshall,

Thank you for your insight, I think I will follow your recommendation to try a macchiato for my next visit to Keans.

I was wondering if you, or anyone else for that matter, could share with me why my experience from last night was so very different from the espresso produced at home from my Gaggia Synchrony Logic. I am very interested in determining what the material differences are between the straight espresso that I have been drinking for the past two and a half years and what I drank last night.

Just to make sure, this is not the first time that I have tasted an espresso. I have been drinking straight espressos for the last two and a half years; I normally make it myself using my Synchrony Logic, but when I travel for work I obtain my espresso-fix from other establishments.

I look forward to your response.

Cor

by **Marshall** on Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:58 am

cruiten wrote:I was wondering if you, or anyone else for that matter, could share with me why my experience from last night was so very different from the espresso produced at home from my Gaggia Synchrony Logic. I am very interested in determining what the material differences are between the straight espresso that I have been drinking for the past two and a half years and what I drank last night.

While it is common for people to report that even well made straight espresso is too strong for them, it's pretty rare for someone to prefer what comes out of home superautomatics. Those shots are usually thin and bitter, with a pale, thin layer of crema or none at all. This is, I think, usually the result of the cheap internal grinders and poor temperature control that are typical of such machines.

I have no explanation for your experience. Perhaps you hide your machine's shortcomings with a lot of sugar? (Just speculating, because I have no other answer).

by **shadowfax** on Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:59 am

Marshall wrote:I have no explanation for your experience. Perhaps you hide your machine's shortcomings with a lot of sugar? (Just speculating, because I have no other answer).

I think Cor had a great list of possible explanations for his experience:

cruiten wrote:Here are some of the thoughts that are going through my head about last night's experience:
Has my Gaggia Synchrony Logic corrupted my taste buds?
Did I receive a sub-par espresso?
Did I receive a great espresso, but my taste buds didn't realize that I did?

My first inclination is to think that it'd be great if you could describe what your super-auto is like, Cor. I know what a commercial super-auto operated by a potentially stoned teenager using stale over-roasted beans tastes like, but I can't say I've had the privilege of trying a super-auto that's well-maintained, carefully adjusted, and fed fresh beans. I suspect they can be pretty decent when used properly, but like I say I've never known anyone who was "really into" making espresso, who has a clue about something as basic as fresh, artisan coffee being the #1 ingredient in quality espresso, who uses a super-auto. I get the impression that I'm like most people here on the forum--we associate super-autos with Marshall's description--strong, bitter, thin black coffee with a touch of airy, pale foam. So, whether that fits your experience, or you use sugar, etc. is something only you could tell us.

However, I would be extremely hesitant to rule out your second guess. The fact that the shot you described had a harsh front but was nice after that could very well be associated with a flawed shot. Great espresso can be elusive; getting something good at home or a good shop isn't a foregone conclusion. We like to hope that bars QC well enough to eliminate bad shots, but you really can't guarantee that unless the barista samples all the shots (new problem: my barista drank half of my drink!). I could name a few shops here in Texas where I usually get a good shot, but occasionally receive shots I'd consider unacceptable--shots just like you describe, with a harsh and acrid nose. Shots that look great till your first sip.

I'd say it's best to keep trying. Visit shops (even the same one) and get a doppio and a macchiato. If you don't like the doppio, don't finish it. But don't forget to try more places: in addition to the 'problem' that espresso is heavily dependent on your barista (and, beyond that, to some extent your luck), it's about as varied as wine. Some espressos are sweet, nutty and creamy; others are fruity and chocolaty (etc.). Different blends play to different tastes. So, try as many as you can. Finding a shop that serves several espresso blends to try will be a gem, especially one that's good enough to let you know the flavor profile to expect from each coffee--that will also help you gauge if a shot you get is bad because it's off or you just don't like it.

Trust your taste buds, and try not to be too easily put off by unpleasant experiences. Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the ride.

by **scjavadr** on Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:31 am

Cor

I tried a similar experiment. My memories of drinking espresso early on are of buttery sweet caramelly shots. I stopped drinking espresso for a while and I am now in pursuit of those flavors and shots again.

I also roast at home in Orange County. I was making several good shots with my different beans and different roasts, but could never get the same experience. Most of my espressos were good to very good, but not the same. So I began my quest of trying a bunch of reputable roasters.

I went to a few shops in the Bay Area to dry their espressos and milk drinks. I also ordered roasted blends from reputable roasters to brew at home.

My experience with Kean and the other shops where I had espresso is similar to yours in that there is a strong shocking up front taste, but the lingering taste is much better. I realized that in my opinion, my shots at home were at least as enjoyable as what I get from these shops, so I'm pretty close for my personal preference.

When I've tried a bunch of pro-roasted blends, I realized that I was able to get some of the sought after buttery sweet shots I was looking for. For me, it depended on the actual roasted bean. Some I buy are more like what I experienced in Kean and the other shops, but others give that elusive shot regularly. So my guess is that it is the roast and blend the shops use compared to your home set up.

At the moment, I have a bunch of Sweet Maria's greens, and I'm going to experiment with different roasts with those to see what I can get. Generally, with lighter roasts, such as what seems to be becoming more common these days, I think the shots are less what I'm after, but good in their own way. We'll see...


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