A little off topic but I must say I am impressed, (not really I kind of expect it from this lot) I have listened to so many people who can't keep the whole Hot, Neutral (Grounded), Ground nomenclature together.

Were any of you ever shocked by a xerox machine in the old days, making sure the case is properly grounded ended that old prank. Sad day for office antics.
I recall reading some where, in the US one of the main drives for polarized plugs was the fact we cant seem to switch over to a better (safer) light socket.

There is still a lot of commercial and residential wiring that have hot neutral reversals especially in the older places (like the house I am renting right now). In a small and relatively simple metal box when the source power wiring is unknown a little extra safety for the person who might be touching the case and standing in a puddle of water at the same time isn't all bad.

I am not an electrician or an engineer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, So if i am completely off base feel free to set me straight.





...split from Why are Hot AND Neutral Connected via Switch on Mazzers? by moderator...

TeMpTiN wrote:There is still a lot of commercial and residential wiring that have hot neutral reversals especially in the older places (like the house I am renting right now). In a small and relatively simple metal box when the source power wiring is unknown a little extra safety for the person who might be touching the case and standing in a puddle of water at the same time isn't all bad.

One of the best reasons to own and use a Woodhead tester (or equivalent).

Psyd wrote:In the US, Hot and Neutral (Live and Grounded) are not interchangeable.

Psyd, I'm surprised that you of all people would call Neutral "Grounded". You've done it twice now. The NEC definitely differentiates between the two and I'm sure a sound engineer is painfully acquainted with the concept of ground loops. Just because neutral is usually connected to ground at the service panel doesn't mean neutral is at ground potential at the receptacle. It probably seldom or never is. Your highlighted diagram clearly shows that neutral is not connected to ground at the switch.

I think the posts about having a common switch configuration for 110/220 and maybe other countries' voltages is probably a valid reason. The argument about hot/neutral reversal is certainly a valid point too. Not to be a smartass but my impression is that European tradesman standards are generally much higher than here. There a journeyman must go through a rigorous apprenticeship before getting a license. Here, correct me if I'm wrong, it is much easier to get a license. And I'm not sure the code is strictly enforced here either. Just last week I had a licensed electrician of many years (I checked his license numbers) come over to give me a quote on converting/adding a 220V circuit to my kitchen island for a coffee machine. He suggested converting the dedicated 2-wire (hot/neutral/ground) dishwasher/disposal circuit to 220 and pulling the wiring to one of three receptacles on the island inside the sink cabinet and using that for the dishwasher/disposal while still leaving the receptacles intact both of which are code violations. Europeans think Americans are stupid and so they probably assume some tradesman will reverse wire a receptacle. Why risk a lawsuit? Wouldn't the DPST switch remedy this situation rather conveniently? AND read this snippet from the 2008 NEC article on Motors, Motor Circuits, and Controllers:

430.105 Grounded Conductors.
means shall be permitted to disconnect a permanently
grounded conductor, provided the disconnecting
means is designed so that the pole in the grounded conductor
cannot be opened without simultaneously disconnecting
all conductors of the circuit.

Now granted the neutral is not grounded here but I think in a broad interpretation this would still apply in this case to the NEUTRAL. Again why risk a lawsuit? This covers all grounds.

shadowfax wrote:See The Wikipedia article on Electrical wiring:
Formally the neutral is called the "grounded conductor"; as of the 2008 NEC, the terms "neutral conductor" and "neutral point" have been defined in the Code to record what had been common usage.

Hmmmm. I find this most curious and somewhat alarming. Article 100 Definitions of the 2008 NEC states:

Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal conditions.

Neutral Point. The common point on a wye-connection in a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current system.

I don't see any mention of the term "grounded conductor". BTW the definition for that is:

Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor that
is intentionally grounded.

Just goes to show, anyone can write anything at the Wikipedia. Doesn't make it necessarily so. In any case to use the two terms interchangeably, especially in a specification document, would be a big mistake. How long will it be before some journeyman connects the green wire where the white wire should go and vice versa?

In the way i was taught what we call the Neutral wire now, was referred to as the "Grounded", also remember it was a two pole system and the plugs were not polarized. (Grandmas house was Shocking)
The real confusion came about when for safety the Ground (no -ed aka green, or bare wire) started being used in every receptacle.

Then you had Hot, Grounded, and Ground, the problem was people would easily confuse the terms so for clarity and safety the term Neutral was introduced.

To make things more interesting if memory serves the lug that goes to ground in the meter and in the panel is referred to as the grounding conductor.

Edit: upon further review even my terminology is a bit old, technically the Ground (no -ed aka green, or bare wire, The round hole on US plugs) is the ECG (Equipment Grounding Conductor)

I recommend extreme caution when changing light bulbs!

In Holland, we do it like this:
'Fase', which translates to 'phase' for what you call hot
'Nul', which translates to 'zero' for the neutral
and 'aarde' which translates to 'earth' for the ground.

And we've got a real powergrid which can actually supply power instead of crapping out at 1.7kW.

Bluecold wrote:And we've got a real powergrid which can actually supply power instead of crapping out at 1.7kW.

Where have you been that it does? That's like the power draw of a $100 microwave in the US.

O, yeah i forgot that in the USA you also have got 20A. For which you need different plugs and sockets. And those crap out at 2.2kW. Which still is just 60% of what we've got here in Europe.
It still sucks that your power grid is weak, because us Europeans get duped with lower power stuff because mfg's don't want to make different products for Europe. Power tools max out at 2kW. So do electric kettles. And vacuum cleaners (although the vacuum cleaner power war has ended with the success of Dyson). Annoying, because i'd rather not wait 30% longer before my water is boiled.

Bluecold wrote:It still sucks that your power grid is weak...

We're also stuck with gallons, miles, and pounds. Have a little sympathy, we don't have metric days either (arcane reference to Saturday Night Live "metric leisure time" parody ).

Laral wrote:There a journeyman must go through a rigorous apprenticeship before getting a license. Here, correct me if I'm wrong, it is much easier to get a license.

AND read this snippet from the 2008 NEC article on Motors, Motor Circuits, and Controllers:

Now granted the neutral is not grounded here but I think in a broad interpretation this would still apply in this case to the NEUTRAL. Again why risk a lawsuit? This covers all grounds.

That snippet of the NEC (and snippets of the NEC and NFP out of context can get you into really serious issues) refers to motors, yeah, but only those motor situations depicted in the illustration marked 430.1. It ain't talking about your sissified single-phase 900W kitchen appliance, lil bro! ; >
While the NEC is a great resource, you must remember that it also covers large manufacturing floor machinery, mining equipment, stage and screen, *and* the theatres that they're in, hotels, construction sites, shipyards, and airport runway lighting.
This particular snippet is referring to the five wire disconnects. It is a lockout that prevents the neutral from being removed while the hots are still connected by idiots who have absolutely no business messing with electricity big enough to vaporize human body parts in timespans measured in milliseconds. I stood next to one of those disconnects last night, although (since the NEC isn't code, but strong suggestions) stage electricians *tend* to be smart enough to know it, and the disco was clearly labeled with the applicable portion of the NEC covering indoor temporary electrical service disconnects, including to "connect the grounding conductor (green) and then the grounded conductor (white) before connecting the a, b, or c phase connectors."

And from my (admittedly not the most recent, but they're costly) version of the NEC Definitions in Article 100, Chapter One:

Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor
that is intentionally grounded.
Grounding Conductor. A conductor used to connect
equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a
grounding electrode or electrodes.
Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor
used to connect the noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment,
raceways, and other enclosures to the system grounded
conductor, the grounding electrode conductor, or both, at the
service equipment or at the source of a separately derived
system.
(Italics mine)

While the NEC is popular, their reference throughout to 'Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is a nod to the fact that there are really no teeth in the document, only the aggregate knowledge of professionals and experts. Some jurisdictions adopt the NEC as bible, some as reference, and some not at all. In any case, I barely understand the distinctions in the above quote, and I already know what they are talking about.
I used both descriptors in that some folk are used to one set of terminology, and another are used to a different lexicon altogether.
My original subject line included a bit of an invitation to EE's, and Dan discouraged it to garner more general interest. It worked!
It's always good to crack open the books once in a while, keeps me on my toes. You'll never believe how long it took me to get to the applicable parts of the NEC this time, constantly being distracted by interesting bits. I was as frisky as a pointer in Squirrel Park!

I don't want to pick a fight but the "Grid" is not necessarily any different, nor is the "Service" but at some point in the past it was decided that residential circuits in the US would be 110-120v.

My house in California has 200amp service, the one in Michigan 300amp. There is a 480v plug for the MIG welder and a number of items that run 220v. The lights do not dim when I fire up any of that equipment.
The real fun starts on the family farm in central Nebraska, nearest neighbor 2 miles, nearest town 11 miles nearest city with more than 1500 in population 40-45 miles, Power is solid unless taken down by a tornado or massive ice storm.
I will concede that things in California in the middle of summer do get stretched a little thin, but outside of that state on the west in summer, the "Grid" is plenty strong.

The reason for weaker consumer appliances is a different thread and not one I want to inadvertently start like I did this one.

Edit: wow Got distracted for 5 minutes and 6 posts popped up

@Psyd:

Excuse me for asking er, uh, "big bro'", but where are you reading all this into that quote? I see no mention of motor size in the entire article to that point.

IX. Disconnecting Means
430.101 General. Part IX is intended to require disconnecting
means capable of disconnecting motors and controllers
from the circuit.
FPN No. 1: See Figure 430.1.

So where does it in any way imply all that hyperbole you just spewed out? Also how does that quote not apply to your SJ?

Perhaps this might be better argued at Mike Holt's Forum

Thats where i cleaved this very enlightening quote:

The neutral is always the grounded conductor but the grounded conductor isn't always the neutral conductor.

Edit: My intention with the above was to try and cool things down just a touch or at least possibly direct where this thread was heading to a more appropriate venue.
I am fairly proud of the power handling ability and stability on my property's and after re-reading my above posts have realized how I responded in that moment of weakness.

My apologies.

If you find yourself offended by someone's tone, it's favorable that you resolve such issues privately, rather than fanning 'flames.'

It's hard to tell who this is addressed to. It could be any or all of us including YOU :

And Europe is to blame for the old standards that we continue to cling to... Countries that obtain services later always have the advantage that they get to learn from all the mistakes that were made in the previous countries when implementing their standards. Turn around and bite the hand that feeds them? Next time, the EU ought to put forth the capital to develop the next big service, and we'll watch them screw it up, copy it with a better one, and then complain about how all the products made for it suck because they have to work on your standard and ours...