I apologize for the long 1st post but I have a lot on my mind and figured I would get great advice here. Here goes...

So what started out as interest in a Silvia/Rocky combo at home quickly turned into a Rocket Giotta Evo and Ceado E37 over the course of a week. "Wow, that escalated quickly." Tell me about it. Now before I drop $3,000 on a home setup, I have some trepidation I'd like to discuss before cold feet turns my attention back to my other money-suckin' hobby, guitars.

I'll guess I'll make a list of disconcerting items

1) Mess - what type of mess am I looking at introducing into my kitchen? I grind coffee beans daily and while it makes a little mess, it's nothing a quick wipe of a damp kitchen towel can't take care of. Will grinding beans in a doserless unit, making espresso and steaming milk create a significantly larger mess? I guess I'm picturing coffee grinds covering every square inch of my bar, steam causing water stains on the walls/ceiling, and stray espresso shots from that bottomless portafilter squirting all over myself and everything else. Am I being over-dramatic?

2) To Plumb or Not to Plumb - I'm planning on using the reservoir at first and pursuing plumbing as an option later if needed. How many shots of espresso and/or lattes can I make on one fill? I know there's a lot of draining to stabilize temp so I wasn't sure how many actual shots you can pull before pulling out the reservoir and heading back over to the sink. Also, how often will I be emptying the drip tray? It's only 16 ounces so will it need to be emptied every other shot? Does the Evo have drain connect so I don't have to empty the drip tray once it's "plumbed in"?

3) Maintenance - I'm hoping to buy once and get at least 15+ years out of this machine. Am I nuts for thinking that? Is it the nature of the beast to be shipping this thing off every 5 years for repairs? I live in North Alabama so there's not many/any options for repairs near me unless Nashville has repair shops that I am unaware of.

4) Heat - I live in the South, it's hot. My oven heats up my kitchen in the warmers months to the point of not wanting to use it. Will the espresso machine and steam wand cause a similar temp increase?

5) Milk Drinks & Espresso Quality - we'll be drinking 90% Lattes and Caps. Does the quality of the shot matter as much when it's mixed in steamed milk? I'm assuming it's like Jack 'n Cokes, that if you're mixing your whiskey that the quality of the spirit is less important. Does this hold true in the espresso world? Will my sour/bitter shots during the learning phase ruin a latte?

Based on what I am reading, I would recommend a Nespresso setup. It is capable of making fairly decent espresso (much better than *$'s or DD) and you won't have to deal with any issues of heat, cleanliness etc...

It will be more expensive in the long run than the typical machine/grinder/beans route but you won't have to worry about maintenance since when it breaks, you just buy a new one!

SonVolt wrote:1) Mess - what type of mess am I looking at introducing into my kitchen?

That really depends on you. Looks at the "post a pic of your setup" thread to see the full "mess" range, my bar always looks like this. Even with a bottomless, once you get the hang of it, you shouldn't get many spritzs at all.

2) To Plumb or Not to Plumb -

It's not critical, but I don't think anyone who's plumbed would go back, and a 16 oz drip tray is not going to hold many shots/flushes. You'd probably want to flush into a container.

3) Maintenance - I'm hoping to buy once and get at least 15+ years out of this machine

- Should not be a problem with a high quality machine like you're looking at. However, it will break. You're mixing electricity, heat, water and steam. It would be better if you were comfortable with basic repairs. I just had to put a new brew element in my 2.5 year old Mini Vivaldi. It would have been a huge pain/expense if I had to ship it off.

OTOH, a commercial grinder shouldn't break in a home enviornment. You'll probably need to will it to someone.

4) Heat -Will the espresso machine and steam wand cause a similar temp increase

- Not like an oven

5) Milk Drinks & Espresso Quality - Does the quality of the shot matter as much when it's mixed in steamed milk?

- Not as much, but there's plenty of people here who can tell a good shot from a bad one in a capp.

You've really gone from zero to 100mph quickly, so are you comfortable 1) with getting a heat exchanger vs a double boiler and 2) with sourcing freshly roasted high quality beans (easily done from any of the roasters on this site).

The rocket Giotto/Cellini have small drip trays, especially them being HX machines. while they don't need the very involved flushing techniques some other brands require, that thing will fill up quick. Flush into a little container and dump it in the sink every shot or two. I even did this on my Quickmill which had a massive drip tray. Just makes the drip tray fill up slower, with less chance of it being full before Im done pulling shots.


How much mess? Depends? How much mess do you make when your cooking? You can make espresso and have the entire spotless from start to finish, OR, it could be a trainwreck by the time your done. Luckily, either way, cleaning up some coffee or spilled milk is very quick and easy.

Plumb her in. Whatever machine you choose, if you can plumb it in, do it.


Machines in this price point certainly can last 15 years. The question is whether you will want to get something else in that time frame. Grouphead gaskets every 3-6 months, up to a year depending on use. Possibly every other year the lever on the grouphead will need a little lube and a new gasket. Same for the Over-Pressure Valve. Depending on water hardness, descaling might be needed quarterly, twice a year, or once a year. Once a year is probably the least you can get away with, because you need some minerals in the water for the coffee to taste right. Backflush every 40 shots or so. And as for parts failing, the only really consumable part on the Giotto or any other E61 HX, is the Pressurestat. Eventually, it will fail, and you'll need to swap in a new one. Could be 6 months, could be a couple years. Not a hard repacement, and when you do it, you can upgrade to a beefy commercial Pstat to avoid future breakdowns.

Thats about it, roughly. These machines, if kept clean, if descaled, if properly maintained, can more or less last indefinitely. The rub, is whether or not you will want to upgrade in a 15year time frame.

Thanks everyone. If this unit winds up near my dishwasher then theoretically it should easy to plumb in, right? Could I tie into the dishwasher's water line and drain? I'm trying to think of a way easily plumb this thing in without destroying the granite or tile backsplash in the process.

If you plumb, you'll definitely want to add a filter and softener, so make sure you can fit that in. Also, I think dishwashers drain under pressure, so you probably don't want to tap into that!

We have a "whole house filter" on our water supply which is fed from a natural spring/well. From what I understand, our spring water is very low in minerals so hard water has never been a problem in the past. Maybe I should get it tested somewhere other than the Pool place to be certain.

If the drain on the dishwasher won't work then how about the kitchen sink drain? It's right next to the dishwasher.

Dishwashers typically drain into a fitting on the garbage disposal. Any hard-plumbed setup should be done according to code. Drains can be more difficult than supply.

The water feeding the dishwasher is probably tapped off of the hot water plumbing. You don't want that going to your machine.

Plumbed in is great if you dont mind cutting the 1.5" hole in your countertop, kind of like a desk access hole. You wont use anything that is attached to your dishwasher. However, you can run the water line and the drain behind your dishwasher to the sink area. If you look at your drain, it has a side-arm that takes input from the dishwasher. You can replace that piece with one with 2 side arms, the second one is for your coffee machine. Once plumbed, you will never go back. Took me about 6 hours to plumb, mostly just figuring it out. Easy. And I did the hardness filter and charcoal filter from chriss coffee. My machine is on the other side of the sink from the dishwasher. It averages 5 minutes to make a latte (single dosing the grinder) which can be a hassle when in a hurry in the morning, and much loved process in the evening. I usually make 2 lattes (one for wife) in 6 minutes in the morning using a triple portafilter with double spout and steaming milk for both in a 30 oz pitcher. The drink isnt quite as strong as a full double per person with frothier individually steamed milk but hey, gotta get to work on time. Still woudnt even consider fully automatic, rubbish in comparison and twice as many things to break. In the evening make singles, make the wife's first to make sure grinder is set right (she thinks it is because I think of her first). Spend the most you can part with, otherwise you will suffer from upgradeitis sooner. Just by visiting this site you have already gotten infected.

stinkyonion wrote:make the wife's first to make sure grinder is set right (she thinks it is because I think of her first)

haha! Yes, this site is infectious... or either I'm a sucker. I do prefer quality though in everything I purchase so the last thing I want to do is upgrade every few years.