If you seriously know your stuff, please help me with a few questions. Maybe you're not a true electrical engineer, but you honestly know what you are talking about and not just guessing ... great. I'm a pilot, so I'm not completely ignorant, but I'm no electrical engineer for sure.

I'm Japanese. Our juice is 100v 50Hz in Tokyo.

A La Marzocco guy at LM USA has told me he spent some years in Japan, brought his 110v 60Hz GS3 with him, and had no problems in Tokyo. He's not an electrical engineer, however.

Likewise, I have had no problems in the past with North American machines here. The caveat is that I've never run one for many, many years, either. Some N.A. dealers who export to Japan say "no problem" as well. Again, "no problem for how long", I don't know.

But a nice chap down in Australia (who works for a dealer down there, but who is also NOT an electrical engineer) tells me to beware running 60Hz stuff @ 50Hz. I know, of course, that something like an analogue clock wouldn't keep proper time, because they use Hz as the timing mechanism. But is there really other cause for concern here?

Is the following claim, for example, accurate?

"With electrical items such as motors and solenoids, you get lower rpm and more heat- which can lead to premature failure."

Is this simply confusing voltage with Hertz? I realize with lower voltage this might be true, perhaps more so over a very long time frame, but he was specifically only addressing Hz with that claim. And wouldn't slightly lower rpm actually mean less heat (except in the case of, say, where an internal cooling fan was being used, which likely would not cool as efficiently)?

Another question has to do with a voltage-only differential.

Australia runs on 220v @ 50Hz (220 to 240 I believe). We do have a 200v 50Hz line in our house, dedicated to our air conditioner. But there is a wall plug, so no reason I couldn't plug something else in there. I could also have an electrician come and add a plug perhaps (although now it might or might not become a wattage concern for sure if both were running at the same time -- see my note* at the end). We only run the AC in Tokyo for about 7 to 9 weeks, but you *really* need it then, and we often run it 24x7 during that period -- when the overnight low at 5 am can easily be 25C or even higher, with oppressive humidity, and it's > 30C again by 8 am.

What would be the likely result of running an Australian machine designed for 220v at 200v? That's exactly the same percentage differential as 110v at 100v, which seems to be no problem at all -- at least in terms of usability, even if there are rather longer term issues (per my initial question). And in this case, we'd have 200v at the 50Hz design standard, rather than being off a little on BOTH voltage AND Hertz.

Anyone qualified to speak definitively about this? I'd sure love to become better informed.

If I could buy an Australian machine that would run in Tokyo, that might be a great solution for us. They do some fantastic customization down there, including even wooden group covers for the newest MP versions, which LM definitely does not offer.

Cheers
Yuki (female Japanese pilot dying a slow death for her espresso)

*My note for the real electronic geeks:

Our house was built for 3 air conditioners (three 200v machines). In Japan, they are outside condenser units, roof or balcony mounted, with inside wall units to control airflow direction and other things. It's not "central air", but it's not "window units" either. Sort of in between.

We only use 2 currently, having decided we didn't really need/use all 3 when we replaced the units several years ago.

The one in the kitchen has a wall plug. The one in my "office" has a wall plug. So, different circuits, I think??? (opposite ends of the house) The one in another room (the one we did not replace) did NOT have a wall plug. Rather, it seems the live wires came in via the hose hole in the wall, which might indicate that it was on the same circuit as the kitchen??? (Both of those units are/were on the roof at the back of the house, while the "office" unit is on a balcony in the front of the house.)

I bring this up, because if both of the roof units were on the same circuit, they both were able to be run at the same time (we did), meaning there's likely enough wattage to run both 1 air conditioner and 1 espresso machine at the same time on that circuit. Or so I speculate. If anyone has read this far, and has a good idea about this, I'd love to read it.

A La Marzocco guy at LM USA has told me he spent some years in Japan, brought his 110v 60Hz GS3 with him, and had no problems in Tokyo.

By itself, this should be "case closed".

Motor/pump combinations are rated for both 50/60 Hz operation. Yes, they turn slower but since the great majority of the water flow is simply recirculated internal to the pump, I see no problem. Fluid-o-Tech performance curves are always shown in both frequencies.

Solenoid coils are properly labeled for 50/60 Hz operation.

The majority of espresso machine heating elements are rated for 110V operation. This would be "stamped" on the exterior hex nut. So, in the US, they would deliver (120/110) squared = about 20% more power in watts. In Japan, they would deliver about 83% less power. For the GS/3, this is no problem as it has reported to be a prodigious steaming machine.

Buy the US model and enjoy it. The Australian model would be a tough unit to unload if that ever came to pass.

erics wrote:By itself, this should be "case closed".

Motor/pump combinations are rated for both 50/60 Hz operation. Yes, they turn slower but since the great majority of the water flow is simply recirculated internal to the pump, I see no problem. Fluid-O-Tec performance curves are always shown in both frequencies.

Solenoid coils are properly labeled for 50/60 Hz operation.

The majority of heating elements are rated for 110V operation. This would be "stamped" on the exterior hex nut. So, in the US, they would deliver (120/110) squared = about 20% more power in watts. In Japan, they would deliver about 83% less power. For the GS/3, this is no problem as it has reported to be a prodigious steaming machine.

Buy the US model and enjoy it. The Australian model would be a tough unit to unload if that ever came to pass.

Many thanks for this information. I think you mean "83% of rated power" not "83% less power", yes? (I frequently need a copy editor, too, no worries.)

I'm pretty sure we have come to a final decision on this, and I think/hope it's going to work out better than any of the other solutions would have, anyway.

Just got confirmation that this will be okay:

We will order a 110v GS3 MP from Oz, who will order it from Firenze. It will be fully tricked out (something that would not have been available from any other dealer I know), and will look something like one of these (haven't decided exactly which color combinations we'll do yet, but with the side steam option, too):

Can't tell you how happy we are, and how much we are looking forward to having a machine like this in our home! (The one with the gold accents really looks wonderful, but I'm worried our guests might think we stole it from Donald Trump.)

Cheers

Retired Industrial Electrical Maintenance Technician with only an Associates degree in EE here. But, much hands on practical experience with machines from Europe being used on US spec voltage/frequency which is very similar to your situation. Most all internal components made today are dual rated as Eric noted, you will have no problems with doing what you want with the 110V machine on 100V. Enjoy your espresso.

Well, I am an electrical engineer. Whether or not I am "real' is another question.

I will agree with the consensus that you are probably okay. You will get reduced heating power with reduced voltage, and reduced pump motor rpm with reduced frequency. The "on" duty cycle of your heater will increase as it tries to maintain same setpoint with less power. This could potentially reduce lifetime. Any electronic "brain" components really run on DC, and the switching supplies that generate that DC are usually rated to accept a wide range of voltage and frequencies.

Now, you can't guarantee that the designing engineer derated everything enough to take these possibilities into account, and there may be some sort of unexpected long term consequence. Given though that you also have anecdotal evidence that the GS3 specifically had no issues with years of operation, I would say the odds are in your favor.

There's another discussion here from years and years ago that seems to imply you're ok too:
Running espresso machine at lower voltage in Japan

That said I seem to remember that Japan's power grid changes if you're in the east or west(?) not sure if that'll affect you.

I have EE and CS degrees. I'm native of the US and lived in China for 13 years. What Nate42 said is spot-on.

Also, I'd like to point out that many components, power supplies in particular, are designed for multi-voltage out of a pursuit for manufacturing and parts supply simplification, and the quality of those found in high-end machines like LM are capable of running slightly out of spec without adverse problems. This is totally different from cheaper components from places like mainland China which often can't even run at the outer limits within spec without problems. So while I agree with the above comments, I would not expand that to cheaper equipment with lower-quality components.

I am also an electrical engineer and concur with the others as to powering your machine in Tokyo, Yuki san.
For an iron clad certainty, you can request assurances in writing from the manufacture as to suitability for use in Tokyo.
They have to be on the hook for that.

As for the Trump joke, politics are kept out of the forum for a lot of reasons... politics has nothing to do with espresso making and it makes for bad blood between baristas.

EDChris wrote:There's another discussion here from years and years ago that seems to imply you're ok too:
Running espresso machine at lower voltage in Japan

That said I seem to remember that Japan's power grid changes if you're in the east or west(?) not sure if that'll affect you.

Yes. 50Hz in the east, which includes Tokyo, and 60Hz in the west, which includes Osaka. Can you believe it???

I has to do with the way we electrified, city by city mostly, with some cities (Osaka) buying generating equipment from the USA where it was 60Hz, and some (Tokyo) buying from Europe where it was 50Hz.

Interestingly (to me anyway) the area in the middle of Japan where electrical frequency changes is also the place where escalator etiquette changes. No joke. In Tokyo, stand on the left pass on the right. In Osaka, stand on the right, pass on the left. No, I'm not kidding. If you don't want to be an oaf, you do this.

We worry about trivial stuff, yes?

Charlene wrote:I am also an electrical engineer and concur with the others as to powering your machine in Tokyo, Yuki san.
For an iron clad certainty, you can request assurances in writing from the manufacture as to suitability for use in Tokyo.
They have to be on the hook for that.

As for the Trump joke, politics are kept out of the forum for a lot of reasons... politics has nothing to do with espresso making and it makes for bad blood between baristas.

Touché on the politics.

Thanks for your confirmation. However, getting an assurance from the manufacturer in writing about running their gear on slightly non-standard juice is like (insert your favorite political metaphor unsuitable for this forum here).