Ken Fox wrote:A fair number of us home enthusiasts are highly educated and spent a decade or more in professional education to become medical specialists, lawyers, university educators, or whatever. Excuse me, but some person who has become a "professional barista" cannot claim to have been through the same sort of rigorous training and experience as that.

One could take being a chef as a similar type of work, for comparison. As a barista, your training and experience also don't come close to what a master French chef goes through ...

This may have been true a while back; but at the top levels, it's becoming somewhat inaccurate for two reasons:

1. There's a saying at the universities that science progresses funeral by funeral; even the best trained professionals cling to the work that made their reputations long after it is discredited. Dedication to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be, is primarily a moral quality, not an intellectual one. It is this moral quality that lets the best researchers to be stubborn when nobody believes them, and search for problems after everyone is singing their praises.

2. The top baristas, that is the very ones competing in these events, are defining themselves as coffee people. They are roasting, cupping, travelling to origin, harassing grinder manufacturers, even reading coffee chemistry texts. As espresso becomes the de facto method of specialty coffee preparation, the career paths in the industry have to change. I would not be in the least surprised if, in twenty years time, the top coffee people -- roasters, importers, even people involved in growing and prep -- mostly had their start working as baristas.

another_jim wrote:This may have been true a while back; but at the top levels, it's becoming somewhat inaccurate for two reasons:

1. There's a saying at the universities that science progresses funeral by funeral; even the best trained professionals cling to the work that made their reputations long after it is discredited. Dedication to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be, is primarily a moral quality, not an intellectual one. It is this moral quality that lets the best researchers to be stubborn when nobody believes them, and search for problems after everyone is singing their praises.

2. The top baristas, that is the very ones competing in these events, are defining themselves as coffee people. They are roasting, cupping, travelling to origin, harassing grinder manufacturers, even reading coffee chemistry texts. As espresso becomes the de facto method of specialty coffee preparation, the career paths in the industry have to change. I would not be in the least surprised if, in twenty years time, the top coffee people -- roasters, importers, even people involved in growing and prep -- mostly had their start working as baristas.

Jim,

I can't speak to how people behave in academics, but the physicians I worked with whom I respected were continually learning from their experiences. No doubt many well educated people allow their brains to atrophy under the day to day drudgery of their work, but this is not an excuse and many avoid falling into that trap.

As to your 2nd paragraph, I wasn't writing about Geoff Watts and people like him, who as far as I know don't work as professional baristas in addition to their cupping, sourcing, and roasting work. No doubt there will be people who emerge in the coming years who have more of a real claim to being "professionals" in coffee. I doubt that those people will work much as "line baristas" because their other skills will have far more economic value to the business than their ability to make drinks.

Learning how to make espresso drinks rapidly to a high standard is a real skill, one I certainly appreciate and certainly do not have myself. At the same time, there are many other skills much harder to obtain than those needed to be a good barista. In our efforts to elevate the role of baristas, we have to be honest and realistic, because otherwise what we say and do will be seen as oh so much insubstantial puffery.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:A fair number of us home enthusiasts are highly educated and spent a decade or more in professional education to become medical specialists, lawyers, university educators, or whatever. Excuse me, but some person who has become a "professional barista" cannot claim to have been through the same sort of rigorous training and experience as that.

Fair enough. I have no M.D., Ph.D., J.D., or L.S.M.F.T. So sounds like you would be up for some sort of toe-to-toe barista skills competition, to see how much your education shows up in the cup? Feel free to set up whatever you deem to be a fair assessment and comparison.

- Nick "college drop-out as of 1995" Cho

<hijack>
As someone who has spent much of his adult life in academia, let me assure you: generalizations about academics are just as inaccurate as generalizations about, well, baristas. A more disparate group could hardly be envisioned. Our past university president often compared the management of college faculty to herding cats. (For once, I tend to agree with him. ) Sure, some professors stagnate - but the vast majority of my colleagues do not. Perhaps it's my field (computer science), but I am continually learning new things, and changing the way I teach. It's an immensely challenging but rewarding career for someone with an active mind.
</hijack>

I think we owe Ken a debt of gratitude for helping advance the art and science of espresso. You don't have to agree with everything he says to appreciate his many contributions.
________
John

Nick wrote:Fair enough. I have no M.D., Ph.D., J.D., or L.S.M.F.T. So sounds like you would be up for some sort of toe-to-toe barista skills competition, to see how much your education shows up in the cup? Feel free to set up whatever you deem to be a fair assessment and comparison.

- Nick "college drop-out as of 1995" Cho

Nick,

You seem to have some sort of need to personalize this discussion, and I don't know exactly why.

I never said that an advanced education is required to be a good barista (or carpenter or builder or whatever), nor did I say that having some sort of degree made one a better barista than a 6th grade dropout. What I did say is that the home enthusiast base includes many well educated people who have spent many years attaining the positions they have in their respective fields. As a result, forgive us if we aren't that impressed with titles and awards and skills that others have, which took a minute fraction of the time to achieve.

About 10 years ago I had the MD removed from my credit cards, and have never (to my recollection) made a dinner reservation as "Dr. Fox," nor do most people who don't know me have any knowledge of what I used to do. I pride myself in dressing like a homeless person

What I'm saying is that the ranks of home baristadom include many people like myself, who have impressive credentials and choose not to tout them. Given that reality, forgive us if we try to put the "profession" of being a barista, and awards coming from it, into its proper place.

ken

What I'm saying is that the ranks of home baristadom include many people like myself, who have impressive credentials and choose not to tout them.

I think you just touted.

Despite disagreements over what constitutes a "profession" and the respect it merits, I think this has been an interesting and thought-provoking discussion. That said, it could easily devolve into personal attacks. Let's see if we can get this train back on the tracks...

Part of my "real" job is working with clients who are having difficulties with our software products. I had a hand in the creation of these products and I assure you that it isn't pleasant listening to a paying client rant about our shortcomings. In my mind I may be thinking, "Do you know how many sleepless nights we toiled to bring this to market?!? Have some respect!" but I'll say "I understand your frustration and want to help. Would you clarify what you wanted to accomplish at this step? With a better appreciation of what and how you want to reach your goal, we can improve the product in the next release."

After doing that a few hundred times, listening for the underlying message and ignoring the clients' frustration and fluster has become second nature to me. While some might interpret Ken's critique as a condemnation of the barista profession, I hear "What can we do to enrich it?" We often focus on the skills of a barista, but I believe Jim's observation is more forward thinking:

another_jim wrote:I would not be in the least surprised if, in twenty years time, the top coffee people -- roasters, importers, even people involved in growing and prep -- mostly had their start working as baristas.

In other words, are mastering the skills of a barista becoming the first stepping stone to the next level in the coffee profession? On a related note, I've heard Nick say several times that SCAA judges should have compulsory tests of their barista skills before advancing to higher accreditation (USBC and WBC). Although I don't see myself capable of passing the same test competitors deal with, I'd be excited to try a mock competition as part of certification, e.g., same format as the competition, but half as many drinks and judges (1 technical, 2 sensory, 2 espressos / cappuccinos / signature drinks).

In other words, are mastering the skills of a barista becoming the first stepping stone to the next level in the coffee profession?

Hell, I thought that was already happening! In my job, I have the pleasure (well, it's mostly pleasure) of talking with many many coffeeshop owners, with all different kinds of shops in many different locations. Yes, some are in downtown metropolitan areas....others are in 'isolated' small towns. But from my standpoint, it seems the most successful coffee business owners/managers are those that either had the opportunity to start as a barista, or those that saw the value in the barista skillset and took time to learn it. My barista training, albeit not in a commercial setting with a line of customers and Hootie & The Blowfish playing in the background, has proved time and time again to be worth more than the time invested. Like it or not, whether you are a roaster, broker, farmer, blender, shop owner, cafe consultant, espresso equipment tech, competition judge, or YES the home-enthusiast who wants nothing more than readily available shots of espresso that will make you die of ecstasy when you taste.....the barista is the answer to "What can we do to enrich the industry/profession?".

My analogies often revolve around my top two passions: cars and movies. This next one involves both. When thinking about the question, "How can we make espresso better?" I can't help but think back to the scene in Days of Thunder when Tom Cruise is trying to explain what he thinks is wrong with his car to his mechanic team. The problem lies in the fact that while his character is a wonderfully talented driver, he doesn't know squat about the physics behind his equipment. As he learns more about his car, he simultaneously learns to be a better driver. Back to coffee, I think a roaster, farmer, shop owner, or any other industry professional for that matter...would benefit greatly from investing some time in firsthand barista experience. In my eyes, going to these competitions and jams is a simple way of putting the most talented examples of "this is how you make good espresso" in one room. Learning the barista skillset (and continuously relearning it, such as the case is) comes with being an above-par roaster, or farmer, or broker, etc. Like my dad said when I was little: "First, you learn how the car works. THEN you learn to drive the car."

Okay, so competitions benefit the professionals in the industry. Dr, rather, Mr. Fox doesn't seem to care about the professionals patting each other on the back for a competition-well-done. To be perfectly honest, I don't blame you, Ken. At first glance, why would the random home-espresso-passionista care who the 'best barista in the world' is? Is that really making the espresso in Idaho any better???? Well, I certainly hope so...

I think Nick had it spot-on when he compared the competitions to a sapling. As a coffee salesman, when asking coffeeshop owners if they will be attending the next comp, responses are typically (as of late):

15%: No.
15%: Sure, why not.
5%: Yes, but we're not competing this year.
65%: What are you talking about?

I can actually vouch for the fact that most shop owners I talk to have never attended one. A few attended, but were content to watch from 100 feet away, and didn't think it was all that worthwhile. But a select few came back, immediately called me back, and thanked me for telling them about it. It took a competition/jam for them to realize that they could substantially raise the quality of their house espresso. Anyway, long story short, they work hard now to mimic the quality/consistency they saw in competition. So it was worth it in that aspect...

In terms of how competitions directly benefiting the home-enthusiast....I suppose you get from it what you take from it. I had the privilege of judging at the SERBC with two "coffee enthusiasts" who both seemed to love participating. I've also invited a few non-industry friends to such gatherings, and with a new level of respect for quality coffee and dedicated baristas (dedicated to great beans, dedicated to sustainable products, dedicated to being the best they can possibly be), they are more cautious as to what shops earn their loyalty. I guess indirectly it puts future business in the good shops instead of the bad.....indirect benefit....

I dunno. I'm not out to attack anyone, and anyone who knows me at all knows that I too like to ask provocative questions that may indeed ruffle some feathers, if only for the sake of keeping the conversation interesting and realistic. And I believe the people that stand up for Ken's perhaps-not-so-apparent dedication to quality espresso and even the barista trade. But I have to say it, and please understand...it's a sincere question: If you say that barista will never be a 'true job', and you think it's just something that people eventually grow up and leave behind for real jobs (your words), why do you even care about the industry in general? I mean, if you've already written it off as a failure, why not just retreat to your home setup and leave it at that? Or maybe a better question: where precisely DOES the threshold lie, where the competitions could show an acceptable-by-you level of efficacy?

I can confidently say that most participants of competitions and jams, whether they be competitors or volunteers or sponsors or hosts, would quickly step up to defend those events if they felt they were being disrespected. Some may take it that way, but Dan Kehn speaks wisdom, so let's all try to keep an open mind about your posts. I will also say confidently that all participants are open to the idea of improving the events (or at least, they should be), and suggestions are more than welcome from professional and top-seeded amateur alike.......

and i'll apologize if that last post seems to jump around a bit. i really wanted to choose my words wisely, and that post was the result of writing a few sentences, going back to work....writing a few more, going back to work.

finally, i'd like to thank everyone involved in this thread so far, even if it did raise the temperatures under a few collars. it made for thought-provoking reading......cheers.

dankbean wrote:But I have to say it, and please understand...it's a sincere question: If you say that barista will never be a 'true job', and you think it's just something that people eventually grow up and leave behind for real jobs (your words), why do you even care about the industry in general? I mean, if you've already written it off as a failure, why not just retreat to your home setup and leave it at that?

We went through this debate a while ago on, I think, coffeed.com. There were a lot of ruffled feathers, but all the ruffling turned out to be over the definition of "barista." When some people say "barista," they mean the person making drinks behind the bar and nothing more. Let's call that "Definition #1."

When other people say "barista," they are also thinking of all the other things a barista might be doing now or in the future, including, training other baristas, managing the shop, roasting beans, wholesale sales, buying green beans, owning a shop -- heck, I know someone who literally went from behind-the-bar barista to an assistant green broker in a couple of months. I'll call that "Definition #2."

When people talk about a "lifetime career as a barista," and they are thinking Definition #1, they are right to say it is a job with a limited future. A middle-aged man or woman trying to raise a family on near minimum wage plus barista tips is going to be one very frustrated person. What might be fun in your late teens and early twenties is not so much fun, when your teenage kids need food, a home, clothing, healthcare and an education. It simply can't be done in any metropolitan area I know of, and I think it is very doubtful in any rural area.

But, Definiton #2. Ahhh! The world is your oyster. In that sense, yes, being a barista can be the entree to a fascinating (and sometimes lucrative) career.