Haven't really read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what people have already said

If you're trying to lift the game of something as vast as the coffee industry, you're talking about many things - raising the maximum quality that people will try to achieve (the top bar) and raising the minimum that people will settle for (the bottom bar), as well as everything inbetween.

The most obvious contributions that comps make is directly towards raising the top bar. There's no denying that the (small) legions of baristi practicing with stopwatches and measuring glasses are becoming better and more consistent. But competitions also raise the bottom bar by attracting publicity, which inevitably gets the "fresh is best" message across. Somewhere inbetween, competitions themselves also provide a pretext for people to network and learn from each other, as well as providing a nucleus for the creation of associations of quality-minded people, such as the SCAA, BGA, AASCA, etc.

Now, the size of the impact might not be all that much, but moving the top bar is invariably only ever going to affect a few. The salient question is really "are the benefits of barista competitions enough to justify holding them?" My answer to that is a definite yes. No, they are not going to solve all of the world's coffee problems. Expecting them to do so is just plain naive. In fact, I can't really think how anyone could have gotten the impression that they would have a huge impact, and I'm sure that Ken did not mean to imply that they would. The fact that something has a small impact is not a reason to sit back and do nothing. I'm more than willing to pony up my certification workshop fee and donate my time.

That said, I very much appreciate Ken's starting this thread, as it turns our minds to a very relevant question - "what MORE can be done?"

Cheers,

Luca

Nick wrote:...and I know very, very few pro's that are interested in being treated like rock-stars... me most definitely included.

It always sorta pisses me off when coffee-enthusiasts come by the shop and express some surprise that I'd spend an hour talking coffee with them. I'm in this business and this craft for the relationships... for the opportunity to connect with people. Sure, I might come across as a little stand-off-ish if someone comes to me when I'm in turn preoccupied with something more urgent, but that's anybody.

Some people have told me that I'm some sort of "specialty coffee celebrity," which totally makes me want to throw up. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If I or one of my baristas makes you an amazing drink, then accompanying words of appreciation are appreciated. However, just because part of my job or my volunteer work involves standing in front of people and emceeing a competition, or giving a talk about coffee, or blabbering into a microphone, means nothing beyond an unintentionally manufactured circumstance. Respect comes not from circumstance or by demanding it.

You know the saying "Don't kill the messenger..." well, don't get excited about them either.

Extremely well said, Nick. Seriously.

Nick wrote:Some people have told me that I'm some sort of "specialty coffee celebrity," which totally makes me want to throw up. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Regarding your celebrity status: It's not so much the public appearances. Or your wizardry with a portafilter. Or your sigs. It's your wardrobe selection for those public appearances.

That said, had you competed last year you definitely would've had your own Fresh Cup Trading Card, which is now a requirement for being a barista celebrity.

another jim wrote:Our interest in the barista comps is not so much as to who wins or loses, or the good it does for raising the profile of working baristas, but what is the best blend, grinder, machine dosing technique, etc etc. Our interest in the winners and losers is mostly about adding "must visit" cafes to our list.

1. Thought so.
2. OK with us if that's as far as amateur interest gets. A word from Worldman or Cannonfodder to other HBs about our shop goes a long way for personal and professional satisfaction of our staff, if not actual business.

Ken Fox wrote:In any hobby or interest, which is basically what home espresso preparation is for most home users who participate in online forums, there is a tendency to become groupies when the enthusiast level is reached. This is not my first enthusiast level interest, followed online, and I see the same thing with coffee that I've seen with other interests. Now we all like meeting pros and we all like to think we are being appreciated, and we all want to think that our enthusiast level of interest is getting us special treatment. I think this approach needs to be tempered with the realization that sometimes our interests will diverge from those of professionals and others in the industry, and we need to maintain a little bit of distance because we don't want to become shills. Those who are capable of independent thought will also realize that pros and people in the industry will have us around, or curry favor with us, as long as they sense they get value out of the relationship and not a moment longer. This is the nature of business, any business, and the way that any business that interacts with an enthusiast community will act towards the enthusiasts.

A Rollercoaster thread guys, and incredibly interesting

One point that rattled around in my head was what makes an enthusiast and what makes a pro, and when the pro goes home and does he revert to a enthusiast?

I personally got involved in coffee because I lived breathed and slept coffee, no different to many home users. I'm lucky enough to take my enthusiasm to another level. I love being able to talk coffee for a living, and if anything I'm the groupie when I get to meet people who I've sold coffee to, or had online conversations about coffee.

I think relationships with anyone have to be a two way street and don't carry on a moment longer when someone is getting what they want from it. I used to visit my Nan, and she was always very pleased to see me, but when that annoying 10 year old had annoyed her I was quickly shown the door 

But personally all I want is to talk coffee with like minded people, be that via the internet, email, telephone or if I'm lucky enough to meet someone so I can be their groupie.

Lately this thread has become what I'd hoped it would become earlier on, a discussion of ideas rather than individuals. To the extent that I started something that struck up some interesting discussion, I'm glad. Coffee and similar passions that don't change much from day to day or month to month, tend to produce flurries of interest and long "dull" periods on the online venues. I think there are a lot of things that we take for granted in these interests that need further experimentation and discussion before opinions become set in stone and no other opinions or explanations are accepted.

My participation over the next month is going to be more sporadic as I will be in France trying to learn French and consuming swill that passes for atrocious coffee, but to the extent that my internet connectivity allows, I'll be coming back here to try to kick up a ruckus when time permits

ken

Ok, 4 pages of stuff and I have to add to it . . .

Barista Competitions who care? I do. I own a shop in Apex and one of my baristas was in the final round.

Why do I care as a shop owner?

First it get's my employees excited about pushing the envelope. The event itself and the social interaction with other shop owners and baristas allows the exchange of ideas and techniques to improve the overall quality of espresso. Many techniques used by winning baristas have made it back to the shops and training manuals.

Why does the baristas care?

It shows that their employer does care about quality. It gives them a chance to show off their skills and be recognized. They form new friendships with other like minded people and have a great time. They can talk shop and learn more about the art of espresso.

Is it going to elevate all shops?

No. From a business prospective there are always going to be crappy shops selling crappy espresso. Just like there are crappy restaurants selling crappy food. Just because there is a Food Network channel doing chef competitions does not mean that Snoopy's Hot Dog stand is going to start serving a perfectly prepared Filet Mignon.

From a business perspective there are a lot of shops that spend a lot of money opening and no money training or researching. Some shops simply don't care about quality and find the cheapest supplier of the basics needed to open. A lot of these shops close quickly or sell off for a whole host of reasons. Some of them prosper for a variety of sheer luck reasons.

What the Barista Competitions do for us business owners is link up like minded business owners. These are the business owners that care about their product and baristas and are proud of enough to try and stand out. Not all business owners that compete get it. Some see the competition as solely as a marketing vehicle and then never return after they score so low. In this regard I see were the BGA had an opportunity to help encourage and educate those shops and failed. But then again, if those shops don't want to listen, it doesn't matter how much you talk to them.

What about those signature drinks?

Well, I guess I'm in the camp if it couldn't be replicated in a normal cafe setting then it does not have a whole lot of value. Clearly, doing traditional drinks such as espresso and capps make sense, even if most shops do not sell nor care about making such small drinks. Here in North Carolina there is this area of grey where a shop does not have to be under the health department. The advantage to the shop owner is strictly financial. The disadvantage is they are not allowed to use real cups, thus killing espresso, macchiato, and traditional capps off the menu. But hey! All you Americans like the 20oz milk bomb and it improves the average ticket sale as oppose to selling a small 1 to 2 dollar drink. But that discussion doesn't belong here and would only make more long winded then I all ready am . . .

Change the competition?

I don't know what you would change. Replace the sig drink with a macchiato? Maybe level the playing field with a specific espresso blend or SO? It would be interesting to see what the differences would be from one competitor to the next using the same espresso blend. Yesterday, Daryn Berlin demonstrated the techniques used at 9th Street in pulling Toscano and I could not believe the different in taste from how we pull shots. I guess that is an added benefit of the fact we were shut down due to the chemical fire in Apex. So while closed I played at the shop trying to replicate. I wonder if everyone had time to tune in the same coffee, what would we learn about the finer techniques in packing and tamping to get the best out of the bean?

Home Barista's versus Professionals?

Well, we all had to start somewhere. I was a home enthusiast before I decided to get out of the Information Technology business and become a coffeeshop owner. I started to drink coffee when I bounced over to Europe when I started a company in 1994. I needed something to get me out of the haze of the grappa and discovered the beauty of espresso.

Nick Cho Celebrity?

I don't know if he is a celebrity but he sure keeps us entertained with his Ed McMann sidekick Jay Calgary on portafilter.net. I find the pair of them as very astute business men and forward thinkers that has given a lot of time to the SCAA and BGA. I have found Nick to be excellent host on my visit to D.C. and a pleasure to talk about coffee, espresso, and business among other worldly things such as anniversaries and children.

Home-Barista and Professional Forums?

I find them both necessary for a variety of reasons. Home-Barista has a lot of high quality information and is well put together. As a professional it is great to learn from this site and chat with Dan in the shop. Just like the competitions are geared to help the professionals push for higher quality, it is sites like this that try to help the home barista push the quality higher. They both have similar goals and similar stories to tell. Maybe Dan should put together the Home Barista competition where a similar event is done with home machines and home users. Hell I would even host it my shop if Dan thought there was enough room.

Nick wrote: For you to post a thread titled "Barista Competitions; Who Gives a Sh**" and then cry when you are (admittedly) attacked is the definition of "troll." It was clear, by your VERY FIRST PHRASE in this thread that your intention was to be provocative. You reap what you sow. Quick licking your paw. I, for one, feel no sympathy for you, and I doubt that anyone else does either.

Well stated.


As many know - I am not a fan of the current state of barista competitions. Not because I think barista competitions, per se, are a bad idea. Rather, I think barista competitions are an incredible idea - and an important one. My frustration has to do with the fact that they aren't as good as I would like - as good as I think we deserve. If I didn't think they were so important, this wouldn't bother me.



Ken... there is a common thread through many of your posts - a common thread of snarky hostility towards the professional coffee community. This is a very old school attitude, one that I have opposed and expressed dismay about for years. Just as I fought against the old school attitude of dismissal of "amateur" coffee people that exists within the professional community.
As noted - these are old school attitudes and have held us all back. We've seen enormous progress throughout coffee as a result of the opening of lines of communication between the amateurs and the professionals. The mutual respect we've seen as a result has been incredibly valuable.
You need to let go of old preconceptions and old grudges. The past is dead. It's time to move on.

malachi wrote:Ken... there is a common thread through many of your posts - a common thread of snarky hostility towards the professional coffee community. This is a very old school attitude, one that I have opposed and expressed dismay about for years. Just as I fought against the old school attitude of dismissal of "amateur" coffee people that exists within the professional community.
As noted - these are old school attitudes and have held us all back. We've seen enormous progress throughout coffee as a result of the opening of lines of communication between the amateurs and the professionals. The mutual respect we've seen as a result has been incredibly valuable.
You need to let go of old preconceptions and old grudges. The past is dead. It's time to move on.

Just for the record, you're reading Ken wrong, Chris. Ken is a curmudgeon. Ken is hard to please. Ken loves to pick a fight. Ken doesn't have an ounce of diplomacy in him.

But, Ken really, really respects the professional coffee community, or at least the part of it that respects itself and reaches out to serious consumers. Every year he goes through the miseries of traveling from Idaho to Long Beach for a weekend, just so he can sit at the feet of the masters and hear what they have to say at the SCAA Homecomings. He communicates directly with and supports the pros he respects most. He takes coffee very, very seriously and only roasts his own because he has no other options in his remote corner of the world.

Marshall wrote:Just for the record, you're reading Ken wrong, Chris.

Gosh, Marshall



There's more to it than that. I used to practice medicine, and on the way did a fair amount of research requiring the "scientific method." Just because someone prominent says something does not make it so. The world is full of willing "sheep," and if no one asks questions or challenges the standing order, nothing will change and nothing will improve. I have seen my share of prominent people hiding behind their "credentials." Not infrequently, if one scratches a little below the surface, one finds the emperor has no clothes.

When I was a radiation oncologist, I used to see cancer patients who had been misdiagnosed over long periods of time, and who had significant things missed, sometimes by known experts. It isn't that I don't trust pros, it is just that I realize the limitations of their knowledge.

A fair number of us home enthusiasts are highly educated and spent a decade or more in professional education to become medical specialists, lawyers, university educators, or whatever. Excuse me, but some person who has become a "professional barista" cannot claim to have been through the same sort of rigorous training and experience as that.

One could take being a chef as a similar type of work, for comparison. As a barista, your training and experience also don't come close to what a master French chef goes through, not to mention the incredibly long hours that they put in every week compared to a barista. Travelling often in France, I've gotten to know some of these people personally, and they have my utmost respect. The skillset necessary to be a good barista is comparatively compact, in my opinion. So, excuse my lack of deference. Running a successful cafe or any successful business, however, requires business acumen and additional skills.

When I read stuff that is blatantly implausible, such as a person claiming they can taste 0.1 degree F. brew temperature differences, I'll point that out. Not only do I not think that espresso equipment can reliably produce shots within a 0.1F temperature window, I do not think that human sensory apparatus is capable of tasting such differences. I also don't believe that liquid dish soap residue can be tasted on washed items if they have been sufficiently rinsed off.

Call it skepticism, call it a BS meter, call it whatever you wish. And I'll respond to it whether I hear it from Robert Parker (wine critic), Chris Tacy, or anyone else for that matter.

Once again, it is not a lack of respect. I have been helped by quite a few coffee professionals. These people have never asked for anything in return, and have never made their friendship with me contingent upon giving deference. My life to this point has taught me that the best people in any field are like that, because they in turn are so secure in themselves that they don't need to extract reinforcement from others in order to feel good about themselves.

ken

malachi wrote:My frustration has to do with the fact that they aren't as good as I would like - as good as I think we deserve. If I didn't think they were so important, this wouldn't bother me.

Judging from your online demeanor, I assume your expectations are high. Would you summarize what you believe are the shortcomings of the SCAA's barista competitions?

Meta-comment: I read Tim Wendelboe's The future of the World Barista Championship. Honestly, I feel that he failed to present a cohesive and compelling argument for change. His sour grapes about failing WBC certification is in part why I wrote The SCAA Sensory (Psych) Test. I have little doubt that Tim or any serious competitor would easily pass the SCAA's test on the second try.