Arist coffee machine (Kickstarter) - Page 11

#101: Post by **Alan Frew** » March 13th, 2015, 6:45 am

In the real world, I could build this machine. Paul could build a better one than mine, and his would be solid metal and shiny to boot. There are about a dozen or so companies who already build commercial superautos with most of the advertised features, and probably another 5 or 6 I don't know about. The added electronics are trivial.

Not one of us could build the machine to the size and form factor displayed in the videos, at the price quoted. It would take a multi-million dollar investment in engineering expertise and several material breakthroughs to do it, at a time when the domestic espresso world is moving away from fresh roasted beans to the convenience of Nespresso style capsules.

The videos were faked, the guys involved in the Kickstarter are almost certainly spending more time working out legal ways to take the money and run than they are engineering the machine. If you stop and think about it, it's not as if the world really needs another superauto, even if you can control it with your iphone.

Alan

#102: Post by **bostonbuzz** » March 13th, 2015, 6:20 pm

sashaman wrote:Just curious, but does anyone think that coffee-related KickStarters have unusually high failure rates, or at least unusually high "borderline fraud" rates? ZPM, Arist, Invergo are just a few. And while ZPM predated the rules about not being able to demo or render anything that didn't actually exist, Arist and Invergo were certainly funded under these rules. If there demo videos were camera tricks, I would think backers would have some recourse.

Because cool kickstarters that are mechanical run into lots of problems manufacturing - look at the wireless lock, or even the simple metal pen tube thing that was just a piece of aluminum with a hole in it. Something like an innovative espresso machine, or the most complicated and simultaneously smallest super auto

couldn't possibly have any chance of success without several generations of fully functional prototypes. The awful thing is that they posted a video of the thing making coffee. Misrepresentation. ZPM hadn't even made a thermoblock until they already had all the money. They're engineers. Design it, and the rest is just details. Except the rest is actually where all the hard work is, regardless of the design.

The latest Artist update is of the owner in a bespoke suit in front of machines in a factory, a factory who they just decided they would work with. But don't worry, the'll be shipping in July.

#103: Post by **Bak Ta Lo** » March 15th, 2015, 11:45 pm

day wrote:I have to respectfully disagree for several reasons.

It would have to include

1 a burr grinder with adjustable settings
2 a refrigerated compartment for milk
3 a variable pressure pump
4 precise temp control in a small footprint
5 variable pressure tamping that can mutate as it applies pressure
6 the ability to control it wirelessly
7 the ability to interface with the devices programming to create specific profiles for varies beans and to recognize NFC cups
8 the ability to get online and process recommendations based on specific ingredients on hand and available online

Without those things, at least most of them, it is not at all what was advertised.

Heck just the burr grinder and ability to control the water temp is going to break the bank for the prices they sold them for.

Adding in the other features it is a clear case of intentional deception in my eyes.

Though, let's say they did pull it off just for fun. Even if everything else was done right, it is built around an internal burr grinder. At this prices it's obviously going to be very low quality to fit in all the other "features." Not only will the grind be low quality but there will be unavoidable retention, and with old poorly ground beans going into every shot all the coffee coming out of it will be awful, even if at they did apply 20lb spinning temping force is used with variable pressure and constant temp shot.

This was clearly never intended to go to market, imo. Everything else is just being done to placate those that fell for the gimmick upfront and hold the wolves at bay.

No, you missed my point.

I am saying they will get a machine together, of some kind. I don't think it will have any of the things they originally promised, or at the level they said. It won't look like the model or any of that fake nonsense they have posted so far.

What I wrote was:
"I think they will eventually get a machine built, of some kind. Most likely something very similar to a super automatic that is already being made in a many China factories."

I never said they will deliver all that was promised, or that the campaign started out showing. But, instead they will get some China factory to take already in production super-automatic machine and modify the look, or add a couple of new features. They can just say, well, we wanted all these great new features but due to design issues, problems, money, etc.. etc.. This is the best we can do. They can ship out whatever they make, say they fulfilled the campaign, and the backers have little to nothing they can do about after that.

Maybe you are right and this is a huge haox, and they plan to and will not deliver any product of any kind. If that is the case Kickstarter will have a mess to deal with. If then, do the backers have any recourse really, legally?

#104: Post by **Bob_McBob** » March 15th, 2015, 11:50 pm

It's coming up on a month since the previous "bi-weekly" non-update

#105: Post by **Alan Frew** » March 16th, 2015, 2:06 am

Bak Ta Lo wrote:I never said they will deliver all that was promised, or that the campaign started out showing. But, instead they will get some China factory to take already in production super-automatic machine and modify the look, or add a couple of new features. They can just say, well, we wanted all these great new features but due to design issues, problems, money, etc.. etc.. This is the best we can do. They can ship out whatever they make, say they fulfilled the campaign, and the backers have little to nothing they can do about after that.

Maybe you are right and this is a huge haox, and they plan to and will not deliver any product of any kind. If that is the case Kickstarter will have a mess to deal with. If then, do the backers have any recourse really, legally?

Agreed. See https://www.kogan.com/au/shop/home-appl ... e-machine/ , you can get the superautos wholesale in container quantities for around US$100.00 each. Change the casing a bit, include the milk container in the body, and there you go.

Alan

#106: Post by **Shife** » March 16th, 2015, 4:36 pm

bostonbuzz wrote:They're engineers. Design it, and the rest is just details. Except the rest is actually where all the hard work is, regardless of the design.

I live this statement at work.

#107: Post by **Paul_Pratt** » March 16th, 2015, 11:03 pm

I am utterly fascinated by the whole Kickstarter thing. It does seem that the aim is to get the funding no matter what the story, and then think about what to do with the money. Changing key elements of products after funding seems to be the norm by creators anyway, so I can't see much will happen when Arist roll out a basic super auto box, using an Alibaba special on the inside.

I know in the comments they have referenced this thread, but I wish they would check in more often and see our updates, although highly speculative they are not without a degree of experience and knowledge. I can't believe nobody has mentioned our discovery of the 2 brew paths between the 2 videos.

#108: Post by **Bob_McBob** » March 16th, 2015, 11:18 pm

The Arist backers are more concerned about the removal of the cocoa powder dispenser than trifling details like impossible brew paths.

#109: Post by **day** » March 16th, 2015, 11:36 pm

Bob_McBob wrote:You can back it for $1 if you just want to see all the gory details and hidden private updates a year or two from now.

Finally! Something in this thread that actually makes sense to me!

#110: Post by **Bob_McBob** » March 17th, 2015, 2:27 pm

Looks like they're now trying to bypass Kickstarter and move all the updates and discussion to their own site

Arist wrote: Just a quick comment before the update.

We have just entered the manufacturing process where changes are less likely to happen, so we want to change our update frequency to once a month. On top of that, we found that putting updates on Kickstarter doesn't cover all of our user base, so starting from next week we will begin to post the updates on our new website which will be launched concurrently with the latest update.