If I want my espresso over OJ it is my business. However, that blog and all of the responses are just silly.

The barista could have handled it better. Giving them a cup of ice sends mixed signals. Just offer the ultra-short water Americano in the beginning, explain how it is a much tastier alternative, smile and move on.

You can go anywhere and get horrible coffee and espresso. If you choose to go somewhere that cares about the integrity of the product, you have to trust their expertise.

The clueless responses, just as those dealing with Intelly's dropping of the 20 oz. cup, show we have a LOT of customer education to do in regards to coffee and espresso.

Coffee education is fun... if only you could choose your students.

Hi Jim and all,
IMLTHO
Toward the end of another blog, HERE is the real effect of an internet Pi$$ing contest. At about response 33 and 34 The stuff splatters and skeletons come from the closet. Sides have been taken and nowhere is safe ground. So it behooves all of us to go easy on the flame and very easy with the replies.
sincerely
Richard
PS I may be wrong and you are welcome to tell me ...once!

You can read Nick's response in Open Letter to Jeff Simmermon, which fully demonstrates the point Richard made above.

I have mixed feelings about Murky's service policies (e.g., no to-go cups for cappuccinos and espresso, or as in the blogger's case, no iced espressos). On one hand I admire their policy's counterbalance to the Venti Soy Vanilla Decaf Extra Hot Latte of the corporate espresso world. On the other hand, a policy with no allowance for genuine customer preference seems counterproductive. They could use these "transgressions" as an opportunity to educate. For example, they might prepare your drink as requested, if you agree to read and initial a brief explanation of why it's not the best way to serve their product. Or they could impose a $0.25 surcharge in such cases and donate the proceeds to CoffeeKids. Or even offer a one-time "Murky's Way" drink. That is, the transgressor is served a similar drink prepared to Murky's standards and if the customer doesn't like it, they get a full refund.

Of course, none of these suggestions address "ghetto latte" cheats.

Greetings,

Please explain why adding espresso to HOT water is acceptable but adding espresso to FROZEN water is not?

Cliff

Different request, but similar ranting thread from Nick on Coffeed.

You know...I'm never been a huge admirer, but Nick's right. It's his shop, they reserve the right to set polices and refuse service to whomever they wish. I'm glad to see a shop stand up to the "the customer is always right." fallacy. Iced espresso guy started this fight with his tasteless tip and self-indulgent blog posting.

Mike

cai42 wrote:Greetings,

Please explain why adding espresso to HOT water is acceptable but adding espresso to FROZEN water is not?

Cliff

I actually have the same question; what is faux pas about it? I've never had a straight iced espresso, but I occasionally enjoy an iced vanilla latte on a hot afternoon. Quite refreshing.

My two cents, it's his cafe, his policies, however silly to some they might seem. I'm not quite sure, why Nick decided to respond with the same vulgarity as the customer's rant.

About the espresso over ice - me too would like to know what's wrong with it, though I never had such thing.
Of course this incident is simply the play of arrogance, and I'm sorry but on both sides.
And I insist on someone giving some reasonable explanation why the espresso over ice is so bad. - ops sorry I didn't read the previous post carefully


Edit:
by the way, espresso over crushed ice would taste different then over ice cubes, or is it my imagination?

Howdy y'alls. Good to see some fun threads on the H-B.

Been to murky, had a similar experience. I was there, introducing some of Nick's neighbors to his shop. They're from Rockville, a bit of a drive from Arlington. One of them has an issue with caffeine. We started with traditionals, and the barista I chatted with talked up a varietal that they had there. I was surprised when the barista left the counter to come outside to bring me a complimentary press-pot of the varietal, just so I would know what he was talking about. I tipped him a half-a pound of some beans I'd brought from a roaster here in Tucson when I left.
Anyhoo, round two comes up, and I want to get my buddy a de-caf version of the traditional. They don't adjust the trad, at all, for anything. "But I could make you a de-caf dry cappu, with room" the barista suggests. "With room for what? I query, but before I can get an answer she gives me a look that says, Don't make me give you answers you don't want..." I get what looks like a trad, in a somewhat larger cup, 'with room'. I asked for a double sized trad to go, seeing as my hotel was a coupla Metro stops away and I wasn't about to be able to make it back that day. I was also outside of the policy on that one, also. I don't remember what suggestion the other barista made but it ended up sounding remarkably like the ingredients that would make up a traditional cappu, and doubled.
Nick's a fascist about coffee. He just is. I think he may be a bit proud of that. That pride just may be justifiable, too. There is a reason that he is at all the xBC's he can get to, and is mentioned in nearly any article that speaks about the best coffee available in the country. Just got another recent in Forbes as one of the nation's best.
It may not make him a 'nice guy', a 'panderer', or a 'sycophant', but it does make one heck of a doppio.
In my experience, the 'policies' were a bit annoying, but if you looked at them like what they were, a standard that Nick has set, not only for himself but for his shop, it makes it less difficult to deal with. All of the baristi that refused to violate policy were very nice and accommodating about it. I think that the guy in question contributed much more than he lets on in his blog.

Taken from post number 5 from this blog http://www.welovedc.com/2008/07/1...t-get-it-your-way/ talking about the same situation from a different perspective a la Vantage Point. Apparently after Jack Shephard gets off the island he becomes a Secret Service agent.

carlweaver wrote:July 13th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

I got an email from a coffee expert who explained something rather important about the science of coffee:
"Pouring espresso over ice ruins the crema, the golden brown top layer of an espresso shot that not only gives espresso the majority of its flavor and sweetness, but is also the marker of a true espresso, in a way that using an espresso in an iced Americano does not. Destroying the crema results in a beverage that lacks the flavor that many people (to name a few, the farmers, roasters and baristas) have worked very hard to create."

I stand corrected on my assumption that iced espresso and hot were merely separated by temperature. Thanks, my friend!

I also got wind from another person who witnessed the interaction between the customer and employee. Apparently this was more a case of the customer being a dick than poor customer service.

With the above explanation of what happens to espresso when introduced to ice, I can see why there would be a policy against serving it that way.

My apologies to the young fellow who I assumed was being a jerk

Mckolit, thanks for the explanation!
Hopefully you all don't mind focusing back to coffee... though we are focused on coffee anyway(*) - I'd like to ask if the americano was made of hot water, ice and espresso's or should the water be not hot?
I have to try it so I'd like to know please...


(*) - I'd like to say sorry then to Nick for speaking of arrogance while it might have been passion and care.
Anyway whatever the case, the episode from the film mentioned by the customer is inapropriate for the situation: in the film Jack fights with a style of service which is opposite to what Murky aspires for.
So please accept my apologies.

All Best Wishes!

Taking a tone with a customer is a 100% lose-lose proposition.

Education by gentle suggestion is one thing (a la Dan's thought - offer him one "your way" instead and explain why you think it's superior, with an offer to make it "his way" if he doesn't like it), but getting negative with a customer who hasn't done something egregiously obnoxious (and ordering espresso over ice far from qualifies) just results in several lost customers - both the guy you offended, and a few out of the 20 (or in this case, 2000) people he tells about it.

On the other hand, Dan, since when did putting a lot of milk in a drink qualify as a cheat? (Not to single you out, I know you're not the only one that says this, but it really rubs me wrong to see it.) I more often drink straight espresso, but I also sometimes like a sweet, creamy americano with lots of cream (EDIT: several ounces of half and half, or even an ounce or two heavy cream if they've got it, though they rarely do) and sugar (preferably dark brown sugar). Not a latte, but just a drink with lots of cold cream, requiring neither the labor nor waste of steaming milk - and it's obnoxious and unfair to call this a "cheat", IMHO. If you don't want to give out milk, don't put it on the counter, and if you want to limit how much people use, give it out in 2 oz. cups - don't put out a pitcher and then accuse people who use more than a few drops of it of dishonesty or stealing.

JimWright wrote:On the other hand, Dan, since when did putting a lot of milk in a drink qualify as a cheat? (Not to single you out, I know you're not the only one that says this, but it really rubs me wrong to see it.) I more often drink straight espresso, but I also sometimes like a sweet, creamy americano with lots of cream (half and half, or even heavy cream if they've got it, though they rarely do) and sugar (preferably dark brown sugar). Not a latte, but just a drink with lots of cold cream, requiring neither the labor nor waste of steaming milk - and it's obnoxious and unfair to call this a "cheat", IMHO. If you don't want to give out milk, don't put it on the counter, and if you want to limit how much people use, give it out in 2 oz. cups - don't put out a pitcher and then accuse people who use more than a few drops of it of dishonesty or stealing.

Its a condiment bar, not an ingredient bar. You wouldn't take 200 sugar packets so you could go home & bake a cake. Milk is expensive. When you buy a cheap drink (americano or shots) & ghetto-latte it you're probably walking out of the shop with ingredients that cost the shop more than what you paid for the drink. Its completely a cheat. If you don't believe me just ask the shop owner- see what he says. If you really want the drink that way just ask how much extra you can pay to square up.

Shops that do quality work invest in training their staff & pay them well so they'll stick around. This means their margins are rather narrow. I work with alot of high quality shops in Portland & I can tell you that most are barely getting by.

Also a decent shop isn't wasting much milk at all when they steam.

CGP4 wrote:Different request, but similar ranting thread from Nick on Coffeed.

Lost all respect for the guy when I read this (and would have responded but apparently I don't have the chops to contribute to coffeed). I've asked MANY times to pour my own cappos and macchos and it's almost always when I'm on vaca and haven't had a chance to practice my home-barista pours for a while. Nick Cho presumably gets to pour hundreds a day, so what's the problem with a customer who likes to practice latte art from giving it a whirl? I only ask when a shop is dead.

I've only had a couple of negative responses when I've made the request to pour and this a**hole pulls his drama queen act about it? Not pretty.

pdx wrote:Its a condiment bar, not an ingredient bar. You wouldn't take 200 sugar packets to you could go home & bake a cake.

I don't think I really need to say that putting milk in your coffee is not equivalent to taking ingredients home en masse to cook, and resorting to such examples hardly strengthens the argument.

pdx wrote:Milk is expensive. When you buy a cheap drink (americano or shots) & ghetto-latte it you're probably walking out of the shop with ingredients that cost the shop more than what you paid for the drink.

Also an over the top comparison to the point of abject falsehood- a $2.50 or $2.75 Americano with a full 8 oz. of milk would still cost nowhere near that much for the ingredients. Even very expensive organic milk (which is double the cost of what most shops use) costs $6/gallon at retail - $.38 for 8 oz. Add in the espresso, water, and cup, and this is still not even close to the cost of the drink.

pdx wrote:Its completely a cheat. If you don't believe me just ask the shop owner- see what he says. If you really want the drink that way just ask how much extra you can pay to square up.

And there's the fundamental problem - a cheat directly implies dishonesty and failure to play by the rules, and if you put things out on the bar for people to put in their drinks, without giving them an "acceptable" proportion (i.e., a rule to follow), they're there for people to use in the proportion they see fit, assuming they're using them in a beverage they purchased from you. Some people will use more than average, some less, and the beverages are priced for this. If someone fills a thermos with milk to take home and cook, that's one thing, but putting more than an average amount of milk in a cup of coffee you paid does not make dishonesty. And re: asking the owner, he's already given his answer - by putting out a thermos. If they wanted to offer you only a fixed amount of milk for your drink for the money you paid, they could certainly do so (in fact, I've been to a cafe that gives you steamed milk on the side in a cup), or just ask you not to exceed that amount from the bar, in a little sign, or otherwise - they don't, and you or anyone else telling people they're dishonest for using more than you think is ok is nonsense. May no one ever accuse you of being dishonest for using something you thought you'd paid for - it doesn't feel good.