I know there has been a lot of discussion lately (the past few months, and currently) in this forum about profiling, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on this issue, but I'm going to go ahead and give it a whack anyway. I've got a Hottop B arriving today, directly from Hottop. I've been roasting with an iRoar for a couple of months, and I've actually (believe it or not) gotten to a place where I'm making good coffee (not Paradise quality, but hey . . . ), both press and espresso, and I feel comfortable with a range of beans.

But now the learning curve is about to start all over again, and I'd like to try to flatten that curve out as much as possible. So the question is, where should I start? I've got a range of beans to play with, and I'd like to trash as few roasts as possible getting to something good. The two options I've found so far are

a) just going with the factory default (which I don't actually know exactly what it is), adjusting fan speed and/or power setting once I hear first crack start to attempt to slow things down,

or

b) use the (discredited?) profile that coffee.me was happy with before he decided that home roasting was a foolish endeavor: 225g; F1, P10, 6:00; F1, P4, 6:00 (or until desired roast)

Any thoughts on this?

Bonus Points: I've got a wire bead thermocouple that I'd like to get installed in this puppy before I start. Looks like many snake down through the bean chute, some run through the front window(?), and some drill in through the back (not really something I want to do). Can you recommend an easy, yet relatively reliable method for installing a thermocouple in this? (Again, bear in mind that I've got a wire bead-type TC.)

Thanks!!!

I'd suggest starting with the HT B Auto mode & modify it as required to length/shorten drying time & slow things down around 1C. Once you get something you are happy with save it.

If you come in through the chute cover you would want to use a 6" probe type t/c. With a wire bead t/c I'd suggest going through the wall. I tried the 6" probe in the cover for awhile but went to an Omega XCIB-K163 t/c mounted through the wall for both ET & BT.

i've only had my hottop B for a few months, but i started here: http://www.home-barista.com/home-...ile%20catch#p91272

keep in mind the profiles are generated with an input voltage of around 130V instead of normal US 120V. Use a variac if you need/want the extra power/faster roasts.

For my first roast, i chose the profile that looked the most promising and used it directly, and just made sure the temp didn't get out of control or start dropping. for subsequent roasts i modified it to suit the bean (faster, slower, longer, or shorter).

good luck

OK, so I've now done a few roasts with the Hottop B. First two had drops when the machine prompted to drop (170ish HT temp). Third roast dropped at 350 "Bean Mass" temp (thermocouple). This produced a flatter curve after the initial couple of minutes. Aside from drop I'm basically trying to accomplish the following (with good results by the third roast):
1) After the initial couple of minutes post-drop, get the bean mass temp to jump by no more than 20 degrees a minute (power staying at max with fan kicked on to low after a couple minutes) up until . . .

2) 350F bean temp, at which time I kick the heat down so that it's coasting by the time FC comes along (in the 390s). During FC, I now target temp increases of 4 or 5 degrees per minute (FC lasts right around 2 minutes with a couple of snaps on either side of that windown) until . . .

3) FC is ending, so I kick the fan up another notch to keep temps progressing in that 5 degree/minute range, ending the roast after another minute or so with my bean mass temp in the neighborhood of 420 for a City+ roast, getting out when I get a whiff that SC is about to kick in.

So . . . any comments from my dear friends there in the peanut gallery?

A week has gone by, and I've done a ton of reading, and a ton of roasting. I'm getting some cups that I'm happy with, especially some Kenya from SM's that turned out very nice. Just wanted to post a pic of a roast and ask what you folks thought of it. I'm currently measuring with a TC in the bean mass and (until I receive the second TC I have on order) logging the HT's temp reading as well. Here's the log:



Blue line = HT temp reading and Red line = bean mass reading. This is a roast I did tonight of the Kenya peaberry (a bit darker of a roast than I prefer, but it makes the wife happier). Each x axis tick mark = 30 seconds. Beans are charged at 350 according to "bean mass" TC, right at two minutes since the HT started its timer. I'm running with power 10, fan 1 until BT is at 340, when I drop it to power 8. At 375 I drop power back to 6. First crack (starting at 397 BT) runs start to finish in right at two minutes, at which time (about 405), I go to power 4 and fan 3 until end of roast when I hear the first snaps of second crack at 435 (almost exactly 4:30 after first crack ended).

I'd very much appreciate any advice you can give me on what I may be doing right or wrong. Thanks in advance.

-I've experimented with a high charge temp before, are you just experimenting too or are you trying to solve a certain issue? Why not charge the HT when it tells you to, i.e. at 167F on the LCD?

-Your roast's total time is about 16mins, right? It looks to me as if you're using a >=300g batch. If you want to experiment with different looking profiles, use a much smaller load, e.g. 150g. That way you can speed up certain parts, slow others, maintain a lower ET, etc.

-Others could tell you more about the Kenya you're roasting but AFAIK Kenyas are bright and your long profile helps in reducing the acidity for espresso.

I realized after posting that I forgot to include the batch weight: 250g (curious as to why you thought that I was over 300g).

I'm charging at a higher temp mostly because I saw that a lot of folks out there were doing such things to speed up the time to FC. It took several more minutes and was a much flatter curve overall when I was doing it that way. I should probably try back-to-back roasts and compare results from them charging at the "recommended" temp and also at the higher temp. What's everyone else out there doing??

maxwellh wrote:What's everyone else out there doing??

My general practice is to charge at 380F ET. To calibrate, my ET sensor reads 360F when the internal sensor reads 167F. At 1:00 after charging, I see a turning point temperature of around 160F measured in the bean mass.

For beans that I have reason to believe need a shorter drying phase (Brazil Ipanema Tree Dried from SM comes to mind), I will charge at 400F ET.

Jim

I think you sensor is reading closer to standard bean temperature data than the internal one, and would be easier to use, at lest for for me.

Personally, I think 6 1/2 minutes from first crack to end of roast is way too long; I'd be looking for about 3 to 4 minutes. But that part of the profile is more a taste thing; and the rest of it looks about right.

Interesting. I have seen a near consensus (is there such a thing on coffee forums!? ) about the importance of time between FC and SC . . . I'm getting a 3-4 degree/minute rise from right before until right after FC and then it's more like 8 degree/minute rise until SC. It might be worth trying not dropping the power so much right before FC (and therefore waiting until FC is nearly finished to drop power) to see about shortening that inter-crack time up a bit. Definitely something to look at. But I'd like more info on charge temp if any other Hottop users can jump in. I currently see a turning point at about 130 after 30 seconds (again, charging at 350 per my bean TC). Might this be too high a charge temp?

Thanks for the info so far, folks!

I'm still pretty new to H-B (after lurking for a couple of years), so I don't want to break the rules or anything--but I haven't gotten a lot of response to this thread, and I was considering starting up a thread on coffeegeek to see what kind of feedback I could get...mostly on the three topics of 1) Optimal charge temp, 2) Post charge power/fan changes, and 3) optimal temp curve during and after first crack.

So, that being said, would that be kosher? The "cross-posting" of which I speak??

MH

You can cross post if you like. But it seems to me you got some answers to your questions.

For instance, I commented that the curve you posted shows a useful looking profile except the stalled section during the first crack (the curve flattens, then gets steeper, mostly a profiling no-no). My take is that you may have reduced the heat too early. You didn't like that answer; so if I had told you to fix the flat spot by reducing the heat even more after the 1st crack to almost completely stall the roast, would you have thought that a better answer? Would it actually have been a better answer?

The key here is that how a profile looks on graph paper doesn't really tell anyone much more than that the coffee was roasted within normal parameters. You now know your Hot top profile is roughly in range. But to actually tune it further, you need to answer other questions: How did the coffee taste? What would you like to change about it?

If there was something wrong with the taste, it's usually possible to tweak profiles at specific places in the roast to cure specific faults or shortcomings. In other words, the coffee's taste is the proper context for making detailed profiling decisions Let me give an example:

I just finished cupping three coffees today that I'm hoping to use for espresso. These were done at standard light cupping roasts so I can understand with what I'm dealing.

• Number three, a central, had a lot of spiced apple, and some interesting distillates. Close to 90 score. The taste was balanced and distinctly sweet, so I'm fairly confident it will work nicely as an SO at a standard early second crack roast.
• Number one, a Brazil, was distinctly rooty, woody, and toasty, but was somewhat disappointing in terms of chocolate, body, and fruit. Low 80s score. I'm thinking a faster drying period, then a slower roast, quite light, may work to make it a pleasantly nutty and maintain body & sweetness, like nougat or marzipan. But this one may be destined for cappas or even the scrap heap.
• Number two, a Kenya, tasted like green melons, cucumbers, and new white wine; it was marginal on sweetness. High 80s score. This is very interesting but completely unexpected behavior from a Kenya; and I have no clue what will come of it at other roasts. I'm going to try a light to medium roast with a longer drying period, and also a very fast dark roast, to the top of the second crack, to see if anything interesting happens to the cucumber flavors on either approach. But it will probably end up to be a brewing coffee, not an espresso or cappa one

There are plenty of people both here and on CG who can tell you how to tweak a profile based on tasting notes like these. But without such notes, I think you might be disappointed.

My take is that you may have reduced the heat too early. You didn't like that answer; so if I had told you to fix the flat spot by reducing the heat even more after the 1st crack to almost completely stall the roast, would you have thought that a better answer? Would it actually have been a better answer?

Wow. I'm not trying to turn this into any sort of a flamefest here--really, I'm not, but this was my response to your initial notes stating that it looked like it was too long from FC to End of Roast:

It might be worth trying not dropping the power so much right before FC (and therefore waiting until FC is nearly finished to drop power) to see about shortening that inter-crack time up a bit. Definitely something to look at.

I guess that was somehow misinterpreted, though because the first thing I mentioned was people always talking about extending FC/SC . . .

I'm pretty skittish about posting on "expert" boards like this, but I'd rather hit up the experts here than hit up the not-quite-experts on the other forums out there; so forgive me if I'm doing things that are out of order.

There are still questions that I have that I'm waiting on (as patiently as I'm capable--my apologies), (and yes, I could try doing detailed cupping notes to elicit more nuanced responses, but if there are obvious errors I'm making right off the bat, then I'm hesitant to get more detailed up front, you follow?) -- specific questions that I still have, that haven't been touched:

1) At what temperature are people charging? Why? Are there different charge temps for different beans (altitude-driven, let's say) as a general rule? How hot is too hot?

2) What's a reasonable time for FC to run start to finish--considering that it's perhaps a 20-degree-F distance for the bean to move? One minute? Two minutes? More?

3) People talk an awful lot (not just here, but elsewhere) about delaying time between FC and SC (i.e., not making them run into each other) -- most talk is about complexity and/or nuance by inserting this delay. So: What is an ideal (is there such a thing??) time lapse between the cracks?

The more I type, the more I realize that most of my questions are very general about coffee roasting at a macro level (not just the Hottop). I liked the thought processes that had gone into the "Brainstorm" thread, and I really wish that that would continue. I absolutely understand that people don't like to talk in generalities--beans and machines being as different as they can be--but I think that there really ARE some generalities out there (don't stall the roast; keep your cracks separate; etc.) that can be talked about.

[Bonus: I think writing cupping notes for the unintiated is sort of like singing karaoke--it's something that just about anyone can do with a little practice, but it seems awkward at first, so here goes my notes on this roast with the graph above which is SM's Kenya Kiambu Peaberry Ndumberi Coop: Pretty racey lemon-zest acidity up front, medium to light body, semi-sweet chocolate and hazelnut(?) or raw almond character in the middle, but finishing cleanly with a round lemon note. I get some sweetness, but I'd like to be able to emphasize that sweetness more--make the cup rounder. Phew!]

Maxwell, I kinda sympathize, roasting is tough and the info is fragmented; anyhow. . .

maxwellh wrote:1) At what temperature are people charging? Why? Are there different charge temps for different beans (altitude-driven, let's say) as a general rule? How hot is too hot?

Search could help, e.g. on the same roaster, a HT-B, this was what I got with a very high charge temp and this was what I got with a very low charge temp. You questions are about starting points with a HT-B? This is what I said earlier:

coffee.me wrote:Why not charge the HT when it tells you to, i.e. at 167F on the LCD?

Stick to this for now.

maxwellh wrote:3) People talk an awful lot (not just here, but elsewhere) about delaying time between FC and SC (i.e., not making them run into each other) -- most talk is about complexity and/or nuance by inserting this delay. So: What is an ideal (is there such a thing??) time lapse between the cracks?

I recall Jim talking about this clearly on several threads, but too sleepy now to search/link to his posts, sorry.

Oh, and . . .

maxwellh wrote:2) What's a reasonable time for FC to run start to finish--considering that it's perhaps a 20-degree-F distance for the bean to move? One minute? Two minutes? More?

IIRC, haven't seen much info on this one; I'm guessing you'll get the "it depends" answer. I think this one depends on the bean, drying leg and the 300-C1 leg. Just starting out? Shoot for a healthy, ~1:30mins, not too fast, not too slow C1. This is from a n00b trying to help out another!

I'm sorry to come off as condescending. I'm just getting more and more puzzled about these posts asking for initial profiles. It's like asking for an initial grinder setting. The answer is always the same -- set it somewhere reasonable, try it, then correct it. Let me take a stab at explicit instructions:

how to set your initial profile

1. roast every new coffee with a base profile. Use any profile you like --- the Hot top's built in profile, a miracle profile some maven tells you to like, the profile you researched after months of lurking. Anything reasonable will do. My advice, for what it's worth, for all roasting, is to do your initial roast of a new coffee with the fastest and lightest roast you'll ever use. For espresso only, on a drum, I'd say stopped just before the first pops of the second, taking about 10 to 12 minutes.
2. taste the coffee brewed and cooled, and optionally as a low dose espresso
3. modify the roast level and profile to get the taste you want.

If after a few dozen roasts, you find you are mostly modifying your initial profile in the same way, make that modification to your base profile.

If you are averse to doing a very light trail roast, and instead want something you can use on your espresso rig right off the bat, I can suggest doing a roast a few pops into the second in 11 to 13 minutes as your base roast, then modifying it according to taste. My belief is that if you go darker than that for your initial roast, you will never get the taste information needed to for a really good profile. Others may disagree.

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen. Sorry if I seem like an ingrate. It's tough to hear that everything requires days between advancement. I guess that's a generational thing. For now, I'm going to step back to charging at the Hottop's request and try to shorten things up a bit once I hit the cracks. I'll work with that for a while and post back with more detailed questions/thoughts after some cupping. Thanks to coffee.me for the links. Good stuff in there after some deep reading. Here's a question for the meantime to HTB owners: how hot is too hot? I've got a ET thermocouple going now, and (with the HT running full blast P@10) I'm hitting 400F at 7 minutes in with a bean temp of 310F. ET continues to climb up until I cut the power back at FC . . . just wondering where/when actual "scorching" happens . . .

So much to learn!!!

maxwellh wrote: It's tough to hear that everything requires days between advancement.

You will be learning and adjusting not for days but for as long as you intend to roast coffee. It's a life-long pursuit. I have known a few commercial roasters over the last few years, and one thing (among many) that I have garnered is that you are always adjusting and learning. Just when you think you have things just as you like it, the crop changes and you begin again trying to recreate that roast you loved. And just when you think you have a roast profile you really like, the fun begins when you try to duplicate it.

I still feel like a beginner because I have only been home roasting for about 8½ years.

Interesting stuff in the last few days . . .

I'm still hammering away at the Kenya Ndumberi Coop from SM's, because I feel like there is a lot of complexity inherent to it, and because of that I can really see differences roast-to-roast and cup-to-cup. I've been trying out a different profile that is more gradual in the initial stages (dropping heat only a couple of minutes in), as well as steeper in the latter stages (getting through FC in 1.5 minutes, and keeping temps a bit higher to hit SC in only another 2 minutes or so). I'm very impressed in the cup difference so far--much more uniform overall, muting the more extreme notes while enhancing the "warmer" roast notes. The acidity is still there, but it's more integrated. Going to keep pushing on (though a lot of travel in the next 2 weeks will limit my roasting/cupping time) and I'll report back here with findings (whether or not anyone is interested! )

In the meantime, I'd love to hear thoughts on ET, now that I've got a dedicated probe for that. I'm reducing heat, as I mentioned, after only a couple of minutes, once the ET starts heading up after charge. I'm trying to keep the ET moderate, while avoiding a stall. It seems hard to keep the ET from skyrocketing once it crosses the 400F threshold, but I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Again, just want to reiterate that I feel like I'm doing a lot of things blindly, so anyone with advice on dos/don'ts please chime in. Cheers! (Below is my latest roast, which was actually on a wet process Costa Rican.)

This looks better to me in terms of maintaining a steady rise; but I'm no Hottop expert.