How fresh? Think immediately out of the roaster!

Yeah, this is a rant. I'm always humbled by the wealth of knowledge and experience present on HB, still am, but man I have to get this one out of my system! It could be just me, my setup, etc, but I have to get it out . I'm not looking for a solution, I'm actually relieved now that I know more about my roasts and how I like'm .

A few weeks ago, I decided to make up my mind on when my roasts (for espresso) are at their prime. So, I started trusting my taste buds, for a change, and sampled my roasts from day ZERO to day 14 (or 10, depending on consumption) with a very open mind. I've already stated my conclusion above, but let me elaborate.

My general impression is as follows:
Phase I (Days 0-1 or so): best possible, clearest flavor and aroma of all days, origin distinctions loud and clear. Best milk drinks ever! And no, no sourness or dissipating crema, sorry!
Phase II (Days 2-6 or so): eh, 65-30% of the above flavor and aroma; and a more "rounded" espresso than above but not better tasting --to me. Day 2 != 6 for sure, but I put them together cause it's not stale, or about to go stale, yet.
Phase III (Days 7-8 or so): ooops, about to go stale, ~20% of the original flavor and aroma, now it's almost "just coffee", most of the fun flavors/aromas are gone.
Phase IV (Days 9+): time to roast again

I played this game with different origins, different roast levels and different extractions. The difference (small) usually is in the duration of each phase but not the trend, the trend is very obvious. I roast with a HT-B and I store my roasts immediately in small air-tight containers (3-4 per roast) @ room temp.

From what I've been reading, I'm sure this is not the case for most of you. Is this happening to someone else too?

The roasting setup plays a huge role here. In my personal roasts on an RK drum I find a couple days rest is optimal. In the roasts I have ordered from top professional roasters on the Internet I find a longer rest of 4-7 days is optimal. There was a recent post here where it was claimed that the MET of the roaster was a big factor in how fast roasts matured. Big MET, fast mature / small MET slow mature. That is probably a factor as well. Your preference of 0-1 over 2-6 could be your grouping; I would try comparing no rest with 2-day on several roasts and see what you think. Or maybe you just like the thin clear flavor right after the roast; I know I prefer the flavors that come in a bit later. Try freezing a bit so you can compare a single roast with more or less room temp aging as well.

Scott

Depth of roast also counts here. Lighter roasts retain their aromatics longer than darker roasts. Max, is the aroma of the shot the most important factor for you; are you roasting into the 2nd crack? If both of these are true, you may enjoy lighter roasts rested a little longer.

My wife just reminded me of one more phase:

Phase 0 (Hours 0-8 or so): about half the roasts are still cooking here , brightness slightly masks bean-specific flavor and aroma.

scottfsmith wrote:Big MET, fast mature / small MET slow mature.

Nice catch Scott! Yup, all these roasts were done with a high ET!

another_jim wrote:Depth of roast also counts here. Lighter roasts retain their aromatics longer than darker roasts. Max, is the aroma of the shot the most important factor for you; are you roasting into the 2nd crack? If both of these are true, you may enjoy lighter roasts rested a little longer.

Thanks, Jim. I find myself enjoying many roast levels: from the end of C1 till like 30s of a rolling C2, or slightly further. The thing is, I like them all better in the first few days. It could be because of what Scott pointed to, resulting in extremely short required rest (Phase 0?).

My current roast style is to get the drop temp very high (350+ on the HT LCD, 500 on the TC), drop 300g in, maintain reasonable drying (bean-dependent), go as fast as possible towards C1 then reduce power depending on roast level desired. For lighter roasts, I reduce the power earlier & lower...etc, etc.
No charring or other noticeable problems; it's been all good so far.

You may be extreme in your liking of aromatics, and fairly insensitive to powerful bitter or acidic flavors. However, it may be you are getting less than you should with your roasts

I know it's fashionable to try 250 to 300 gram loads on the Hottop. But that, combined with a fast profile, will require very hot drum temepratures. Try roasting 200 grams with the same profile, using a lower drop in and less heat. Then roast another batch of the same coffee two to three days later using your current technique. Compare them on day 2 or 3 of the small batch roast versus day 0 of the large batch roast.

If you like your large batch roast more, no harm, no foul. If you like the earlier small batch roast more, it could be that what you are getting was a symptom of an overloaded roaster.

Jim, just to clarify, you're suggesting that the very short rest period I'm getting is due to my current roasting style, right? I understand that you're also suggesting that this style has other effects? What should I be looking for in a smaller batch (~175-200g) roast vs my current; other than longer rest?

I cannot claim the same expertise as Jim, but I found similar improvements to my hottop roasts by dropping the load from 250 to 225-230g. The inspiration was somewhat accidental--as it got cold, and I hadn't yet put in dedicated power, I found the roaster struggling to keep a reasonable roast time with 250 g. Dropped the size for most roast, which matched some of the good results I was getting from 227g samples from vendors. I also drop at 350 on my ET for light roasts, up to 400 for darker roasts. Allows for the drying time to match the profile I'm attempting better, thanks to advice I read here.

At the end of the day, it's about what YOU like, and I'm happy to keep an open mind. That said, my experience roasting and cupping importers' samples with the same roaster is different--I find positive differences with longer rest times depending on the bean. Sample cuppings of short rest dry-process Africans miss some of the subtleties or completeness present at 3-5 days. Yemens, for me, hit their stride around 6-8 days, and I don't usually cup them for full flavor until 4 days.

Thanks for the topic and your thoroughness--I may have to try it with some coffees I know well. Another test and learning experience to add to the list--seem to be adding more than completing. Perhaps we should have a topic listing all open or desired roasting tests or experiments....

Thanks for chiming in, Chad . Yeah, this thread isn't about finding a solution to a roasting problem but you & Jim got me intrigued in under-dosed-roasting . You, too, seem to talk about improved results from lowering batch size while maintaining the same profile. What improvements should I look for?

Ok, ok, now I'm driving my own thread OT, hope nobody minds, all for roasting education

Whether you want to hear it or not there is something going on with your roast if you have to consume the beans that soon to get the best from them.

But if you like it that way then run with it.

But I'd listen to Jim (and others here) they really know their stuff and have have helped improve my coffee 10 fold.

Remember being content is fine but pushing your boundaries you may drive quality higher. It should always be about getting the best out of a coffee.

Sure, Tim, I'm all eyes, eagerly waiting for follow ups from Jim, Chad & Scott and replies from others; I keep my mind well-caffeinated and open . And no doubt, HB.com, Jim and many others are the source...my source .

This relative n00b, me, welcomes all comments and would love to hear about anything he might be missing out on based on the facts presented so far on this thread .