Hi there,
I'm from Calgary. Phil and Sebastian are respected coffee shop for high quality coffee roast, espresso, etc. (probably one of top 5 in town). Knowing my past acidic experience with their roasted beans, I asked them to give me something in the opposite spectrum of acidic and they gave me Panama beans roasted on May 25 (4 days ago). I know it is a bit too early to judge the bean but it turned out sour again. I have done lots of adjustments in last couple of years in my latest machines and found the optimum combination that works well for darker roast espresso beans like Starbucks and even lighter roast beans from other roasts (for instance Fratello God father roast which makes very balanced result not acidic at all). Anyway, with this Panama P & S roast, I tried making it as fine as I could go, with even very very low flow and even extending the timing but I still get acidic result. The only thing I haven't done is dumping the darkest part, but I rather not waste the coffee and find a better solution.
I re-roasted the coffee to a touch darker. Ended up getting less acidic taste but still wan't enough. I roasted it again to the colour of Starbucks espresso (very dark brown) but it went too far because I definitely had minimal acidity but it increased the ashy taste. To be honest, I liked the taste more than the original acidic one. I'm going to try to find a middle ground in re-roasting and see if I get a balance of taste, not too acidic, and not ashy.
I appreciate your comment.

Couple things.

What are your brew temps? Without a PID, not sure what your deadband is on our thermostat.

What is your dose?

I found I had a horrible time with acidity with some third wave coffees until I updosed and ensured I had proper temps using a PID. Completely changed the flavour.... From grapefruit to something more civilized.

I'm not sure your Encore can be dialed fine enough for lighter roasted coffee to taste correct to your palate.
To find out, take it to the finest setting and find the dose that runs about 30sec.
For my Encore, that dose is 16g.
If you can tighten the grind such that a 12g dose tastes too bright, then you'll have to change coffees, or preferences, or buy a real espresso grinder.

Hi there,

Thanks for your tips. So you mean 16 grams grinded in a way to have a tiny stream so it takes 30 seconds for the colour to go blonde?
I thought one step finer made my machine to have a drastically low flow (trickle instead of stream) but may be I had too much grind (I think around 19 grams, but I'll try 16 grams with finer setting).
I know it sucks that Encore doesn't have fine tuning.

But it's amazing that Phil & Sebastian's own grind / espresso machine creates a sour taste too and they are actually fine with it. They favour fruity flavour (berries, etc) to be dominant, but it's not my thing. I like caramel, chocolate, and anything that is away from sourness.

So do you think re-roasting is not an option? Their espresso beans look like paper-bag colour. Isn't that too under-roasted? I asked them about the roasting temperature and timing but the guy at the desk didn't know about it. Is 4 or 5 days from roasting date too early?

Thanks.

happycat wrote:Couple things.

What are your brew temps? Without a PID, not sure what your deadband is on our thermostat.

What is your dose?

I found I had a horrible time with acidity with some third wave coffees until I updosed and ensured I had proper temps using a PID. Completely changed the flavour.... From grapefruit to something more civilized.

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have PID. That's something I should look into. I turn on the steamer to make it a bit bolder while extracting but I turn it off if the flow gets foamy and wide. I think it runs about 98 degrees at that point. It tends to get cool quickly (small heating chamber in Gran Gaggia) that's why I started using this trick. Tend to make better result.

arbous65 wrote: But it's amazing that Phil & Sebastian's own grind / espresso machine creates a sour taste too and they are actually fine with it. They favour fruity flavour (berries, etc) to be dominant, but it's not my thing. I like caramel, chocolate, and anything that is away from sourness.

So do you think re-roasting is not an option? Their espresso beans look like paper-bag colour. Isn't that too under-roasted? I asked them about the roasting temperature and timing but the guy at the desk didn't know about it. Is 4 or 5 days from roasting date too early?

Thanks.

I will take a wild guess and say, their roasting style is just not to your preference! Of course their beans are not under-anything as they make good coffee (maybe not to you) and are successful. Re-roasting coffee would be like the equivalent of taking a very nice, professionally cooked, medium-rare steak and microwaving it to well done. Save yourself the time and dignity and seek out a different source of beans. I don't know what is in your area, but there are lots of good roasters out there that have darker, more chocolate/caramel centric roasts. Look around on this site. You will find something.

I think you are right. I should just stick to Fratello or find a local roasting company using Brazilian bean. Fratello is Phil & Sebastian's competitor and I tried their God Father and even their blend espresso and both are way less sour and has more of that chocolate / caramel dominance. For sake of ruling out all the possibilities for Phil and Sebastian Panama beans, I tried several combinations with finer and less depth (15 to 18 grams in increments of 1) and longer (26 up to 33 seconds) and all ended up being fruity, bland, or bitter. I think the fact that there is lack of enough caramel taste makes me not wanting any of these combinations.
Thanks for the feedback.

jonny wrote:I will take a wild guess and say, their roasting style is just not to your preference! Of course their beans are not under-anything as they make good coffee (maybe not to you) and are successful. Re-roasting coffee would be like the equivalent of taking a very nice, professionally cooked, medium-rare steak and microwaving it to well done. Save yourself the time and dignity and seek out a different source of beans. I don't know what is in your area, but there are lots of good roasters out there that have darker, more chocolate/caramel centric roasts. Look around on this site. You will find something.

Pretty much.

Phil and Sebastian is masterful at accentuating fruit/florals of coffee. If this is not your thing, look elsewhere. Plenty of options like Stumptown, who's like the Starbucks of Third Wave.

I don't want to go off topic, but that statement about Stumptown is terribly unfounded. I have no idea where you got that idea Just because they are popular and well known?

Hi guys, My Gran Gaggia just pooped out! There is no spare-parts for it in Calgary.
I don't have a big budget and tried to find a machine with PID that has a good review.
What do you think about Breville 840XL? I can't dial in the temperature but it is consistent by the set controller.
The low-pressure start may create less sourness, would you say?
Any other issue I should be concerned?
With $450 dollars I could also get a used Rancilio Silvia (basic model) but without a PID. Which one do you think is better?
Thanks.