Rob wrote

Well, OK. I admit there are commercial roasts that can/and sometimes do kick my ever lovin' home-roastin' ass.

This is my point, that a lot of the lovingly sourced, lovingly roasted and cared-for commercial NA roasts don't kick your ass. They should, and I suggest the reason they don't is that roasting is an art. We're not all DaVincis, and all the love in the world can't change that.

But my posts on this thread are taking us away from the OP,s point, so, when I have time, I'll start a new thread, something like "Why do I like commercial espresso roasts from Italy?".

PC

Jack, if they are commercial roasts, can I assume that they are done in very large, heavily programmed roasters?

An individual Italian roaster who roasts according to time honored traditions, or whatever, to produce a roast in a particular style, for a particular taste can be labeled an artist, I suppose. But a giant machine whose entire roast cycle is pre-programmed and controlled via a microchip?

peacecup wrote:roasting is an art. We're not all DaVincis, and all the love in the world can't change that.

I used to believe that, but I've seen enough actual roasting operations and met enough talented people in this industry (combined with doing it myself on a commercial sample roaster), that I no longer accept that description.

I would rephrase it as, roasting is a craft. It is like baking bread. You can become rather talented at it, but you would still be a very good baker, not the next Michaelangelo.

Now, blending IS an art, but that's a different discussion.

ken

Yes, I stand corrected! I myself can make a decent loaf of bread, and probably could eventually roast a drinkable espresso.

But in my current situation I don't have the time for even one sink shot (although my standard may be lower than some), hence my reluctance to try home roasting. When I had easy access to NA roasters it was easy to get drinkable roasts in relatively fresh condition, then I'd freeze it as Ken suggested. Where I live now its very difficult to get fresh beans (despite living a couple of km from Sweden;s largest roaster). This is where I discovered that properly-sealed Italian roasts presented a surprising alternative (but that's another, as yet unposted thread).

The point of the home roasting is the freshness of the roasted coffee. According to my experience, the coffee roasted after 3 days to 15 days has a pick aroma and produce a tingling effect on the tip of the tongue quite awhile after you finish your cup. It is hard to visualize that the local supermarket can guarantee to provide a coffee within this time span. Some review even push to compare it with fresh bread.
Also we can keep green bean longer, for six months. Thus we can buy a larger quantity and reduce shipping cost.
I have good luck with the Hottop KN-8828P. Its roasting cycle is divided into 8 time sequences of 3 minutes max each. I used the first 6 sequences to bring the coffee bean to around 390F (crank it down if the crack occurs earlier) and try to finish within it the first crack. The 7th sequence is mainly used to separate the first crack from the 2nd crack by around 2 minutes, the temperature set point is manually set 10 F higher and increase the fan speed in order to delay the second crack. This time is believed important for flavor development ! The 8th sequence with temperature cranked up to 410F in order to get to the second crack. How far do we have to go into the second crack depend on the desired degree of roast. For my palate, I used to go into for 5 seconds and push a button to discharge for a fast cooling.
I love my coffee and also all my friends. It could be subjective and my friends polite !

I find for most green coffees I have roasted in my Behmor roaster - for espresso singles. I like to go 5-30 sec. into second crack. The most important thing, for me, has not been the particular profile used - but hearing that second crack - and hitting the cool cycle at the right moment.

As I mentioned in another thread - having just experienced some very dark Starbucks roasted beans (for the first time in several years) I much prefer my Behmor roasted beans. My home roasted is Fresher/better with thicker viscosity - and tastier, than the Starbucks charcoal-thin roasts.

I believe a very good pro roaster good certainly surpass my home roasts, however. Mine cost a lot less - and the costs do add up .... but maybe, I should buy a good pro roast on occasion to compare.

Howard

JohnB. wrote:I recently attended an open house at Terroir which included a tour, slide show/lecture & cupping. Along with vac bagging & freezing his premium green beans in smaller lots upon arrival George has convinced many of his suppliers to ship the greens vac bagged instead of in burlap sacks. George talked at length about the long term benifits of vac bagging & freezing over the traditional methods of greens storage. I've only been home roasting for 6 months so no personal long term experience but its hard to imagine that this wouldn't be a better storage method then letting the beans slowly dry out in porous bags..

John
George puts on a great open house. I attend most of them but missed the last one in early sept. Most times I get to meet another homeroaster from the forums, sorry I missed the chance to meet you. George has convinced me of the advantages and results of vacuuming and freezing in several cuppings. I just vacuum pack in canning jars and store in a cool stable environment and it does extend their life. I put away a couple nice Ethiopia DPs last year when I heard of the future problems. They have held up quite well.

How do people hear about the Terroir open houses? Is there a sign up list for notices online somewhere?

On the commercial italian roasts, I have to say I find them pretty mediocre. Acceptable but nothing special, I'll take my roasts over theirs any day (I admit I started out with Illy when I picked up the habit years ago. Now I find it pretty bland. Though at least it's better than Lavazza). Sort of like I find the espresso in Italy - consistently decent, but never exceptional. Both the bottom and the top end of the curve get dropped out. Granted, in the US decent is pretty rare, but I have had exceptional. Home Barista-ing spoils one.

There is no doubt a pro can do better roasts than I can - I'm tasting SMs Moka Kadir against my home roasted moka kadir right now. SM is beating me without a doubt. But mine's ok, even in comparison, and the comparison shows me how I can get better (I'm going too long into 2d crack I think).

And there are lots of specialty roasters out there that I'd rather drink my coffee than theirs at this point. My coffee is calibrated for my palate. Black Cat is not.

Charles
Sign-up for their newsletter at top of the Terroir homepage. When the next open house is planned it will appear on the left edge column of the newsletter a month or so in advance. Be sure to register asap since they tend to hit the limit of 50 people pretty quickly. George sources great WP beans. His care of the beans is cutting edge. They have a Probat and a new Loring roaster that roast differently. Their roasting style is quite clean. Some will love it and some don't.

Thanks for the info. I actually don't love his style, but I have a great deal of respect for it, if that makes sense.

I remember his old espresso shops, but sadly had no taste for espresso at the time, so the memory is practically worthless. Ah well.