I'm pretty much brand new to Espresso, got my Lucca M58 this week.

I have been roasting for about 2 years and have a pretty decent feel for my Huky. Far from professional.

I roasted some of the Sweet Marias Decaf Espresso Donkey Blend. The green beans were about 12-18 months old but have been stored in a sealed ziplock bag indoors.

After 24 hours I decided to give them a try. I pulled two shots and they were at 2.5x yield in about 18-20 seconds. Both were extremely sour, more so than some of my other under extracted shots. I ground finer and was getting 2.5x yield in about 30 seconds, better but still sour. So I upped my brew temp from 200F to 204F. Still sour. I gave up for the night.

After 48 hours I wanted to give it another go, this time I ground even finer and pulled a shot that was about 1.5x in 30 seconds. Still sour. What gives? Do I just need to give these beans a little more time to rest? Is there a magic number of days post roast that Espresso needs?

I've attached my roast profile too. I'm open to suggestions of any kind. Thanks for reading.

I don't have any insight, theories or explanations, but I have lots of experience. I've never not had a sour decaf shot.

Just a few days is hardly much time at all - espresso is often pulled after waiting several days. I haven't pulled a shot of decaf in years... so very sour might not be the effect of that, but if having trouble with flavour balance try to keep yield and dose weighed consistently and just change grind.
Without lots of practice, "about" measurements or volume doesn't cut it for consistency and when learning many more than 4 or 5 shots in a session will be needed to dial in - in the early days of aging, grind change is drastic without refrigeration/freezing.

I've only been roasting for about 6 months and only have been roasting for espresso. Probably not the best route but we don't drink drip style coffees much at all. Espresso definitely shows you any flaws in the greens or the roasting.

Last week I tried a new technique that really seems to be a good direction. I roasted a Guatemalan, Colombian and a Brazilian and all three are definitely the best I've done so far. I was looking at Royal Coffee's profiles for their 78 Blend and noticed the crazy long roast compared to what I was doing. I emailed them about some Colombian I had of their's and they confirmed stretching the milliard phase is important for espresso.

https://www.royalcoffee.com/78-espresso-blend/

This may not be the answer but it definitely improved my roast. It forced a much more controlled/moderate heat before and during milliard and a bump in the heat just before first crack to avoid losing any more momentum. I'm still trying to figure it out but I did +/-4 minutes, +/-5 minutes, +/-3 minutes and things were much better. One of the things that struck me is how much darker the beans are at the same final temp vs a shorter milliard phase roast. It's going to take some practice to get this consistent but I see a lot of potential.....finally!!!

I was charging around +/-390F (+/-375F for the Brazil natural) and trying to drop the ROR as quickly as possible towards the end of drying to go through most of the milliard phase around 15F and dropping into first crack after a little dip at around 10F. The profile definitely doesn't look like a Rao constantly declining ROR, it gets pretty flat-ish and bumpy in there. I've got a lot of work to do to get this repeatable and start figuring out the moves needed to get it better.


Here's a couple of the profiles that turned out pretty good.

I'm no expert, but this is what I was thinking too.

If I may take a brief inquisitive aside: I wanted to say too that I am very impressed with all this data. What software is this from? Is it also reporting your gas input adjustments (Fs and Ps on the bottom)?

Tonefish wrote:What software is this from? Is it also reporting your gas input adjustments (Fs and Ps on the bottom)?

Artisan.
F = fan setting
P = power setting

Thanks Susan! Seeing the P, is this an electric heater then, and in the other plots G = gas?

Roasty wrote:I don't have any insight, theories or explanations, but I have lots of experience. I've never not had a sour decaf shot.

Interesting, I've not had much decaf espresso so I guess my expectations may be off, but the decaf I got from a reputable roaster is turning out pretty good, definitely not sour. It's just a little too dark of a roast for me.

aecletec wrote:Just a few days is hardly much time at all - espresso is often pulled after waiting several days. I haven't pulled a shot of decaf in years... so very sour might not be the effect of that, but if having trouble with flavour balance try to keep yield and dose weighed consistently and just change grind.
Without lots of practice, "about" measurements or volume doesn't cut it for consistency and when learning many more than 4 or 5 shots in a session will be needed to dial in - in the early days of aging, grind change is drastic without refrigeration/freezing.

I say "about" because I didn't have my notes in front of me. I'm tracking everything down to the 10th of a gram. Glad to hear that you think it may take some more time. I'll revisit this at 5 days post roast and report back.

Moxiechef wrote:I've only been roasting for about 6 months and only have been roasting for espresso. Probably not the best route but we don't drink drip style coffees much at all. Espresso definitely shows you any flaws in the greens or the roasting.

Last week I tried a new technique that really seems to be a good direction. I roasted a Guatemalan, Colombian and a Brazilian and all three are definitely the best I've done so far. I was looking at Royal Coffee's profiles for their 78 Blend and noticed the crazy long roast compared to what I was doing. I emailed them about some Colombian I had of their's and they confirmed stretching the milliard phase is important for espresso.

https://www.royalcoffee.com/78-espresso-blend/

This may not be the answer but it definitely improved my roast. It forced a much more controlled/moderate heat before and during milliard and a bump in the heat just before first crack to avoid losing any more momentum. I'm still trying to figure it out but I did +/-4 minutes, +/-5 minutes, +/-3 minutes and things were much better. One of the things that struck me is how much darker the beans are at the same final temp vs a shorter milliard phase roast. It's going to take some practice to get this consistent but I see a lot of potential.....finally!!!

I was charging around +/-390F (+/-375F for the Brazil natural) and trying to drop the ROR as quickly as possible towards the end of drying to go through most of the milliard phase around 15F and dropping into first crack after a little dip at around 10F. The profile definitely doesn't look like a Rao constantly declining ROR, it gets pretty flat-ish and bumpy in there. I've got a lot of work to do to get this repeatable and start figuring out the moves needed to get it better.

Here's a couple of the profiles that turned out pretty good.

Thanks for the input! I'll keep this in mind.

EddyQ wrote:Why do you feel this sourness is due to roasting? Since the espresso machine is new, I would first consider something with brewing that is causing sourness (like water temp too cool). Have you tried this roasted coffee with your normal brew method or simply cupped the roast? How about pulling an espresso with a fresh roast that you buy from a known good roaster? Eliminate the possibility that the new machine is not the cause first.

Mostly because I've used 5 different beans/blends since getting my machine and this is the only one I'm struggling with. Two from a local shop, a bag from Clive Coffee, a home roasted Ethiopian (Medium roast) that is delicious (and 2-3 weeks post roast), and this decaf blend that's 1-2 days off roast that I can't seem to get good results from. If I were struggling with all 5 different beans I would blame myself, but since this is the only one that I can't even get in the ballpark of tasting good, I'm wondering if it could be the roast.

Tonefish wrote:I'm no expert, but this is what I was thinking too.

If I may take a brief inquisitive aside: I wanted to say too that I am very impressed with all this data. What software is this from? Is it also reporting your gas input adjustments (Fs and Ps on the bottom)?

This is from Artisan. F is for Fan and P is for power. It is a gas powered machine. I could adjust the settings to make it say G instead of P if I wanted to, but for some reason I decided to use P and haven't changed it.