You roasted an Ethiopia, a Brazil and a Java(1). You used a HotTop, the same roast level for all (FC) and very similar profiles(2). After a 6-7-day rest period, the shots(3) have some strong, common, brightness(4) and in a 5oz cappuccino they all taste very, very, very, similar: peanuty citrusy (not the best description, but I'm no cupper). What do you suspect?

A. Your green storage.
B. Too long of a drying phase.
C. ET Too high.
D. You stalled between C1 and dump.
E. Your extraction (the machine, you, too many variables to list).
F. Your water.
G. Your milk.
H. Beans need more rest.
I. Something else?

(1) all known to be excellent greens and from a well-regarded vendor.
(2) profile length ~15mins +/- 1min, with drying time being the main difference: EDIT: 8mins +/- 30secs.
(3) ~14.5g, ~200F, ~9bar, 1.5-2oz, with preinfusion (~10secs @ 3bar).
(4) not really sour but could be astringent; I'm not sure how to describe it.


I don't know the answer, but I have my suspicions (and more data to share) but I'm hoping you have enough info already to make better guesses than mine .


PS: I thought a quiz format would make things more interesting, hope you agree.

Three Possibilities:

1. Peanut lemonade is the Costa Rican Catuai profile. Maybe gremlins played with your stash.

2. More likely, you need a lower drop in, a minute longer to 300, then a minute less to first crack.

3. Even more likely: You might be getting a combo of citrus, lemon peel, and wood. This is very common fault in espresso. It's a sign of under-extraction, due to too coarse a grind. Reduce your dose and grind finer to correct this.

Never change your beans or roast profile based on espresso taste alone. There are too many intermediate variables. Cup a light roast to check bean quality. Cup your espresso roast cool to check for roasting problems. It could very well be that the peanut lemonade is an artifact of poor shot pulling.

Jim,

1. Nope, gremlins and stash separated by a chinese wall.
2. Nope, see note (2) above.
3. Nope, no under-extraction sours, more like notes of citrus but with something wrong somewhere.

another_jim wrote:Cup a light roast to check bean quality. Cup your espresso roast cool to check for roasting problems.

Thank you. These are the kinds of pearls we get from you all the time! I don't think we thank you enough for all the stuff we learn from you, please write a book!

Yeah, the 14 grams shots make underextraction unlikely.

In most roasters, if you are drying (between 200 and 300F) for 8 minutes, your coffees will likely all be a dull, dusty, "allergy in ther throat" astringent mess (as opposed to the bleach/grass/chlorine astringent mess you get with underdried coffee). This may even be true with an unventilated drum roaster like the hottop. Am I missing something? That will show up when you taste the roasts brewed at near room temperature (90F to 100F).

Here's one more piece: I was experimenting with something, and my assumption is that something is the reason for these beans tasting the same. That something is already covered in the 1st post.

It's 8mins from dropping the greens in till 300F. Was it "dull, dusty, "allergy in ther throat" astringent mess"? I dunno, I didn't think it was, maybe you have more descriptions for this defect?

Brew the coffee, let it cool and taste it. If it's overdried, it will be totally obvious.

another_jim wrote:Cup your espresso roast cool to check for roasting problems

another_jim wrote:That will show up when you taste the roasts brewed at near room temperature (90F to 100F).

another_jim wrote:Brew the coffee, let it cool and taste it. If it's overdried, it will be totally obvious.

I hope I did it right cuz I'm going to give my answer now

Ground(dripish) alot of that Brazil, slowly poured some ~205F water on it, waited till it's cool.

First sipped and swallowed from a spoon and got this: initially a very weak, slightest, hint of something like fruit punch, then some clear sours, then finished with roasty bitters that stayed as an aftertaste. No good.

Then, like I see on cupping videos, I sipped strongly from the spoon and made sure the liquid gets everywhere in the mouth then I spit. I got one thing: bad, bad, bad! Clearly bitter! Maybe some sour notes too? On my tongue, and stays there forever.

Now, my experiment/answer was (B. Too long of a drying phase.). What I did is:
- I charged my HT-B with beans while it was OFF.
- Turned it on and roasted normally after the beans got to 300F.
- Reason I tried this is simple, I wanted to come up with a way to dry all my different origins without manually controlling the time. I thought that by having the beans enter the roaster at room temp, their temp will raise according to their moister content, the drier the faster; which I now think is true BTW. So, the Java did take more time than the dry-processed Ethiopia to get to 300F, thus eliminating one of the variables I had to figure out for each bean.
- I didn't work, it seems the HT-B isn't fit for this style of drying as it took the HT too long to get the beans from room temp to 300F (i.e. 8mins).

Now, only if Jim didn't point to it sooooo quick, maybe you would've had fun guessing what was wrong

I've just done a new batch, any clues on how the following should taste when cupped cool, tomorrow?


150g, roasted today & dumped @ 430F BT. The bean is SM's Bolivia FTO SHG EP.

It'll brew gorgeous if I know anything. But it may be a minute too fast at the very end for espresso; a longer than usual rest may do it there too.

The cold drop in was a new idea that made perfect sense. But as usual, even good new ideas that make sense are wrong about 90% of the time. It wouldn't be fun if it the odds were better.

another_jim wrote:The cold drop in was a new idea that made perfect sense. But as usual, even good new ideas that make sense are wrong about 90% of the time.

Thanks for the affirmation. I still see value in it, though. My conclusions so far are:

1. My new drying strategy is only workable for tiny batches on the HT-B.
2. It's a clear test for relative bean moisture (compared to a known or average bean).

another_jim wrote:It'll brew gorgeous if I know anything. But it may be a minute too fast at the very end for espresso; a longer than usual rest may do it there too.

Jim, I wanna try and "cool cup" this right. So, what do you think of the following:

• Do it today (with ~24 hours rest)?
• 7g per 5oz?
• Mid grind?
• 205F, poured slowly and evenly?
• Wait 15mins (or till it's almost room temp)?
• Slurp and spit or slurp and swallow?
• What should I look for? Or, is it just gonna hit me?

You're over thinking it. The coffee should taste good. If it's unbalanced bitter or sour, it's no good for espresso, if it's unbalanced sweet, it's usually very good for espresso, especially as a base.

The slurp and spit thing is real useful (as in lifesaver) if you have 5 cups each of, say, 50 samples in front of you. For one or two cups, it strikes me as ridiculous.

If you cup a lot of different coffees, need to do multiple samples of each, and have multiple cuppers, there is only one practical method: standard open bowl cupping with ground coffee steeping in each cup, using cupping spoons and slurp and spit. There are simply too many samples to use filters or presses or to swallow, and too many people to have lips touching the cups. The most widely used standard here is a coffee to water ratio of 55 grams per liter, 200F +/- 5F water, press pot grind, 4 minute steep time, break the crust, 6 minute cool off time, and taste.

If you tasting a few or one cup, with one or a few people, use any method you please. Personally, I like to steep the coffee four minutes as in cupping or presspot, then pour it through a paper filter into a wine glass, so I can smell it more easily. I use roughly 60 grams per liter; the SCAA brewing standard is 55 grams, the SCAE standard is around 70 grams. Since a normal after dinner demi-tasse is double strength, so you can brew over a really wide range of brew strengths without any problems. Pick whateve strength you enjoy most.

For tasting coffee analytically, avoid drinking it too hot, since it blows out the palate. Use the baby bottle trick: touch the cup with the inside of your wrist. If you can hold it there comfortably, it's cool enough to drink.

NICE! Great post as usual!

Got it, thanks, will report back on the Bolivia shortly.

Report on the Bolivia:

Ground 14g and added 8oz of 200ish water to it in a Bodum double wall cup:

@04:00, balanced overall, nothing bad, no sours no bitters. Some very light notes of caramel with the slightest possible hint of acidity. No aftertaste bad or good.
@10:00, maybe a tiny bit more caramel, all else the same.
@16:00, ditto.
@28:00, slightly bitter with everything else gone; not, at all, as bitter as the Brazil above. Some slight, slight, bitter aftertaste.
@45:00, maybe more balanced than 28:00, with some sourish/bitterish short aftertaste.

What does that say? Any benefits of repeating this after a 6-day rest?

Checking on my Caveman Syndrome, I added a bit of sugar @60:00 and now it's like I'm drinking a diet-wine (if one was ever made), literally .

Bolivia shot after a 4-day rest: acid! Might need to wait till day 8 before trying again.

Bolivia shot after a 6-day rest: much better than @ 4 days rest, more like espresso than acid, but too acidy. Yup, will wait till day 8 before trying again, I have a feeling this one won't be OK before day 11.

Bolivia shot on day 9: just like on day 6, too acidy; even in a 5oz cup with steamed milk.

I'm having a hard time following what you are doing. Are you trying to make espresso with light roasts, or cup dark ones? Neither of these usually work for me.

If you brew a roast that you pull just as the first crack is done, and taste it cool, and it tastes mostly sweet, like a grown up soft drink (think a good lemonade) or like a late harvest wine, it will work for espresso. If it tastes predominately tart or bitter, like a dry wine, it probably won't work. However, you still need to roast medium for your shots, and this brewing test does not work with medium roasted coffee.

Let me recap: roasted the above Bolivia on 5/22, cupped on 5/23, pulled shots on 5/26, 5/28 & 5/31 but with no good results; still hoping it will mature in a few more days.

I understood this brewing test (cupping is what I did) will work with this level of roast:

On my setup it goes like this (with BT):
<400---------------- <420---------------425----------------430------------ ~435
C1starting------------C1ending-------------------------------Bolivia---------C2starting

What are the ranges for light, medium and dark above? I understand that: light < 425 < medium < 435 < dark.

I'm sorry if I was not clear the first and second time. There are two different roasts: cupping roasts pulled, just after the first crack ends, and espresso roasts, which mostly go at least to about 5 degrees before the second crack starts, and which usually use a slower profile as well.

I'm not going to advise you how this works out on your roaster, since that never works; but you do need to do two different roasts.

Also, the espresso police will not come and drag you away if you occasionally brew coffee to use up your cupping roasts, and you'll become a far better roaster if your try all your coffees roasted light as a matter of course.