another_jim wrote:I'm not going to advise you how this works out on your roaster, since that never works...

You're right, someone with a similar setup to mine but who is also as qualified & helpful as you are would make an ideal advisor....she doesn't exist...so...
I'm probably asking(see next question!) for too much hand-holding here but I'm hoping this kind of clear, authoritative, info is actually needed by many home espresso roasters, besides me, and is not readily accessible somewhere. What equally depresses and motivates me is when I read that people are getting chocolate strawberry shots from an IMV roasted on a Behmor with a 20mins profile! ARRRGG, it just can't be that trivial?!

another_jim wrote:...espresso roasts, which mostly go at least to about 5 degrees before the second crack starts, and which usually use a slower profile as well.

Alright, so now the plan is to espresso roast at least upto ~430F BT; using a profile that's __(X)__ mins long. (X) is, of course, bean dependent but a good starting point would be:

a) 10mins: with 4mins drying, 3mins to C1, 3mins to dump.
b) 12:30mins: with 4:30mins drying, 3:30mins to C1, 4:30mins to dump.
c) 15mins: with 5:30mins drying, 4mins to C1, 5:30mins to dump.
d) Xmins: with Y drying, Z to C1, ZZ to dump.

The reason I don't give very detailed advice is this:

I just completed my cappa blend roasts for the week. The Kenya was roasted to the first pops of the second crack at 450F, the Guatemala Oriente was roasted to the first pops of the second at 430F.

Nothing magical or unusual about this discrepancy. I ran the Kenya from 385 to 450 in a brisk 4 minutes (16F per minute), while I ran the Guatemala from 385 to 430 in a crawling 5 minutes (9F per minute). The 2nd will start on a slow finish roast even if it is really light, since the beans break down even in the low 400s if they spend a long time there. The point of these profiles is to get clove and black current distillates, along with some remaining acid kick, in the Kenya, and lots of soft (or flat tasting if you're critical), sweet caramel in the Guatemala.

This is the fourth time I've roasted this blend, and I've been getting lower and slower on the Guat and faster and higher on the Kenya each time. So why didn't I get it right the first time?

Because there really are no general guidelines; it's mostly diagnostics. First you cup each coffee to see what it tastes like; then you decide how you want it to appear as an espresso. Now the fun starts. You do an espresso roast; taste; and see how you need to modify your profile next time around. Making roast modifications roast to roast is like making grind, dose, and temperature modifications shot to shot -- You know what you want, and you inch up to getting it.

I'm sorry the exercise that prompted this thread was mostly a bust; but you've probably learned more in this one go round than people roasting Monkey Blend the same way year in year out ever learn.

Well, Jim, I can't but thank you once more for entertaining my thoughts so far
Implying that we should work with (i.e. troubleshoot) one bean till we get it right, if it ever had potential for espresso, is solid advice.

HOWEVER, why can't it be easier? I read Kenneth Davids' roasting book more than 10x and it's just an introductory book with no applicable profiling information. Is there another, prosumer-focused, espresso roasting book out there?

A different thought, why not a shared, serious, database of detailed profile/roast info; a shortcut to the many repeated trials and errors done by so many espresso roasters?

Even a simpler thought, why not so many detailed HB threads on profiling a certain bean? Is it a shortage of espresso-roasting-gurus on HB? Difficulty of communicating profiling knowledge? Lack of interest from amateur roasters to get it right? I could start by taking the beans in my green stash, 1by1, and start a thread(for each), requesting expert advice, and posting the results profile by profile, day by day. I'll post my illustrated profiles, taste as suggested, and take it as slow as needed to communicate the processes and the results. Would that even work?

HOWEVER, why can't it be easier?

There are some general principles that are useful to know and those have been discussed in several threads here and are in several writings. But a list of detailed profiles that could be used for all roasters is IMO impossible and the reason one does not exist. I too thought there must be an easy way for someone to just give me a profile to follow for best results but now with some experience I better understand how difficult/impossible that is. There are so many variables that have to be taken into account. Starting with each roaster transfers heat differently. Degrees of conduction, convection and radiance. If using electricity variances in voltage. In monitoring bean or environmental temperatures, the placement and resulting readings will vary. Room temp., humidity, barometric pressure and altitude, will also change things. Then you have to consider the complexity of coffee with over 1000 compounds. Each will react differently with the slightest of changes of temp./time/moisture content and heat application. As beans age or depending on storage conditions and changing moisture level in the beans will cause an effect. Then every origin, crop year, lot, and bag will have differences. Each processing situation will change things. And even if you could take all these into consideration we all have different taste preferences. Other than learning some of the basic principles, nothing has help me more than my own experiences with my roaster and roasting many batches, cupping and adjusting. Others can make some suggestions with some specific issues once you can learn to identify them with experience. For me, I've just had to realize that roasting is an endless yet enjoyable journey.

That's fine, Ed, and thanks for chiming in. This presents a problem we all acknowledge but I'm yet to find a relevant book, DB or active discussion trying to do something about this very real, very serious, issue. Bottom line is this: for a home barista, the biggest impact (and, hence, joy and fun) supposedly comes from the variety and quality of roasted beans. Yet, home espresso roasting is one of the least "attractive" subjects to the online community. This vs. PIDing? vs MODs? vs restorations? All not very trivial matters but more "sexy", and hence, people create solutions to make them more accessible.

let's have a look at the community of home espresso roasters:
A. Many buy greens from the same suppliers; i.e. similar green stashes.
B. Most will have one of ~5 consumer products for roasting espresso; i.e. very similar HW.
C. Many can do the thermometry (at least many do for their HXes!); i.e. can talk similar numbers.
D. Most have MS Excel and can generate profile graphs.

Yet, take the people with the new TC'ed HotTops, this is a subset of the community that spent close to $1000 on a roasting setup(more than most PIDed Silvia owners spend on their whole setup). How many roasting curves do you see here on HB? Where are these people's trials? These are the questions I was raising above: Are we content with bad tasting espresso home roasts? Or is it that we have no gurus with HTs, Genes, and other profile-able roasters, to guide us? Or is it a communication problem? What is the problem stopping us from tackling this problem?

I've posted some roasting profiles on HB before and many helpful responses came from people who have different setups; and, therefore, can't go into details. I wonder how many HTs were sold? Are they all getting the chocolate strawberry from IMV and are happy? How many HBer's have a HT-B and want to make great espresso roasts? 3? 5? What's the problem? Oh, well, maybe it's just me ... maybe I have bad water

I do believe that most buy their espresso beans from pro roasters because of the fact that it is very difficult to do well at home. There's enough of a challenge in just producing good shots without having to try to figure in/out the roasting too. Our equipment is generally lacking when compared to what the pros. are using too. A thousand dollars won't even pay the down payment on a good commercial small batch roaster. I primarily roasted for brewed coffee for 2+ years and well over 500 batches before I even considered attempting to produce a really decent espresso roast(YMMV). I do agree that some sort of a Homeroasting espresso 101 guide would be helpful to get some basic understandings but would still need to be combined with a lot of practice.

Max, I appreciate what you bring to the home roast discussion, And I agree that more specific details on tempurature profiles would be helpful. Sorry, no Hottop here.... still stirring and dialing the popper.

On the Idido ( I assume you mean the current Sweet Maria's), it is stawberry to chocolate! The dry aroma at 2-3 days post roast is distinctly strawberry. The chocolate emerges fairly light into Full City. A soft milk chocolate. At City roast I get sour (unlike last years) at least City+ and then to balance the strawberry to chocolate by how much darker you go. Seconds count. I stay away from second crack with this. The strawberry fruit on this one seems delicate to me and it can evaporate if you're not careful. I've not had much luck pulling deeper fruit out of a darker roast on this one. It's just so clean and proper I want to say 'refined'

Maybe you could revive this thread:
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/roasting-profiles-for-espresso-t3115.html

Max, I hear you. I'm one of those with the TC hottop, and have posted a bit. I'd post more, but I feel like I'm venturing off topic then. I don't yet roast for espresso specifically--Not yet fallen down that rabbit hole sufficiently. Primarily I roast for brewed and for sample evaluation.

I don't want to venture too far off the mission of the site--which is about espresso, with tales of my roasting "success" (which is really success in consistency and the beginnings of the journey) with cupping samples and brewed coffee, because I have read and even experienced some of the differences and complexities with roasting for espresso. So, since I'm not roasting specifically for espresso, and I've not even (yet) reached a level of consistency with shot pulling at home (not enough practice), I've not the experience or knowledge to expound on roasting for espresso. To do so would detract from that specific purpose here, and imply a level of knowledge/experience I do not yet possess.

I'm starting to think that what makes the community of home espresso extractors tick is the abundance of expert leaders paving the way for the majority of followers, tweakers, etc. Those leaders also lead on new frontiers, previously unknown to them or the community, based on their solid experience/skill/knowledge.

When I compare the home espresso roasting scene to the above, I start to see the problem as a scarcity of such leaders; with Jim being our OPEC With a non-trivial matter, such as home espresso roasting, we (those who doubt even the basics of what they've learned) can only offer our current data and observations and that's not something a knowledgebase can be built upon; a DB, maybe.

So, how does one cultivate the interest of guru espresso roasters?

Another thought, SM's new forum seems to have an excellent, unique, opportunity to lead the way on home espresso roasting. They focus on green beans, home machines and they have the experience and industry reach. More importantly, they're a popular entity and are motivated, at least in part, by profit. I wonder if they will attract the gurus?

When I compare the home espresso roasting scene to the above, I start to see the problem as a scarcity of such leaders; with Jim being our OPEC With a non-trivial matter, such as home espresso roasting, we (those who doubt even the basics of what they've learned) can only offer our current data and observations and that's not something a knowledgebase can be built upon; a DB, maybe.

Max
This has been an issue for awhile. I follow the Roasters Guild (public site) and Coffeed that are sites with active pros and a good roasting thread will start, scratch the surface and then die. There have actually been members on RG who have proposed offering more roasting info. for beginning pros and advanced homeroasters who have then been emailed by other members discouraging such attempts. IMO part of this is the fact that roasting education is a substantial business and the other is that many local microroasters offer their products online too and competition becomes a factor. From what I've seen, the amount of espresso homeroasting Guru's is pretty small. For those of us trying, we just lack experience.

I've had fair success (for my still-being-educated palate, at least) with home roasting for espresso, simply by paying attention to where each bean is at its best in terms of flavor development, figuring out what flavors I want in the cup, then roasting origins individually and blending post-roast. Overall, I'm very happy with the way my espresso roasts are coming out and they're comparing pretty well to commercial roasts that I'm trying. For me, the keys to what I think is fairly successful home espresso roasting have been:

1. Develop your cupping skills, so you can recognize the flavors you want. When I'm working with a new bean, I'll do two small roast batches - one a lighter roast for traditional cupping and one a couple of snaps into second crack for cupping as an S.O. espresso. Between the two, I can decide where that particular bean will work best for me.

2. Learn the basics of blending (and I think that this is the most complicated part). What do you like in an espresso blend? What cup characters appeal to you? How do different flavor characteristics offset each other when played against one another in a blend? The only way to really get to know this is experiment. Start with each bean as an S.O. then blend them together in different proportions until you find what works best for you. Once you can do that with two beans and know how they affect each other, add a third. I'm currently playing with a pulp natural Brasil as the base, then a Sumatran and either a Central or an Ethiopian as the third note. The more I do it, the more subtleties I find. As hobbyists, we have the freedom to try things that commercial roasters maybe can't, because we're working on a much smaller scale.

3. Learn how your roaster works in your environment. I've seen enough posts from other Behmor owners who get results that are different enough from mine that I suspect your local power supply, micro-climate, and what color shoes you're wearing can all have an effect, and what works for somebody else might not work for me. Freeze small batches from one roast, then roast the same beans again a couple of weeks later to the same level, thaw the frozen batch and compare for consistency.

4. Check yourself against the professionally roasted blends that you like on a regular basis. Not to try and exactly match what they're doing, but to make sure you're there in terms of roast quality and consistency. I buy some stuff from Klatch or from Jones Coffee Roasters every couple of months to compare to what I'm doing.

5. Educate yourself. If you can find a local pro to hang out with and learn from, do it. Read, talk to other roasters. Hanging out here is good, but remember that not everything somebody else does is necessarily going to apply to your situation. The most important thing is to have fun with it. If you're not having fun, why are you doing it?

As always, YMMV. This is just what's been making my roasting adventures satisfying.

Thanks for chiming in, George.

farmroast wrote:There have actually been members on RG who have proposed offering more roasting info. for beginning pros and advanced homeroasters who have then been emailed by other members discouraging such attempts. IMO part of this is the fact that roasting education is a substantial business and the other is that many local microroasters offer their products online too and competition becomes a factor.

Ahhh, Ed! This supports my earlier thought above: SM's new forum could change things if Tom recognizes/values the opportunity. It's in SM's interest that we roast well -- so we don't quit/reduce purchasing from them. Heck, if they want to charge me for online lessons & tutoring, I'd happily pay!

Roasting for espresso is not THAT different than other brew methods.
I'm still puzzled a bit by the angst of your roasting adventures. So the Bolivia shot was sour/acid, and the roast finish was short at 2:45. Yes, this makes sense. Next batch run the finish to 3:30 or 4:00. Make small adjustments when you are close. Sometimes is seems you make too big adjustments (much longer dry time, etc) Only adjust 10-30% instead.

Do you have a good sense about cooking things in general? Can you boil water? Does your french toast puff up and turn golden brown? Can you get the marshmellow toasty and golden brown on a campfire?
Not really joking but serious, some culinary aptitude is essential to take on coffee roasting.

Yes, I do post about my unconservative roasting experiments, I learn a great deal by doing so. And I do enjoy cooking, not a great cook though, but can follow recipes to the T, now show me where those HT-B Bolivia profiles are

Well, I'll be a hack without a Hottop and no experience with your Bolivia bean and say that I think you are close with your first profile. I would suggest you try to run the finish out to 3.5-4 minutes and try for a finish bean temp of 430-440F. I can't imagine the rest of your profile is too far off the mark to cause problems.

I checked Tom's notes on this bean and maybe you should step back and ask what you are trying to do with this bean. A Typica, Lemon bright at City+, soft chocolate to nuts, mild intensity and light body, I'm not sure it is such a candidate for a dreamy SO shot. Take a bit darker to moderate the acid, but don't expect you will get much nuance, spice or complexity, or a thick creamy body from this bean. A soft milk chocolate, nuts, mild, with modest acidity and light body is where I might expect to get it. ....but there are always surprises.

another_jim wrote:snipped]

If you tasting a few or one cup, with one or a few people, use any method you please. Personally, I like to steep the coffee four minutes as in cupping or presspot, then pour it through a paper filter into a wine glass, so I can smell it more easily.

Jim, I've been "cuppign/slurping" my espresso varietal roasts before post blending, using the same filter technique, into a brandy snifter. Letting it cool certainly makes it easier to taste what's what, enabling me to better blend my coffees. Several times it has really changed my "would be" proportions.
It also points when I screwed the pooch...ruined some good beans, due to incorrect roast profiling. My fault, not the machine. Keeping decent records helps to prevent that from recurring so often.
This is a very useful thread.
Thanks.