On Sunday at the SCAA, I decided to concentrate my "floor time" on visiting the various roaster manufacturers to see if there was anything new out there that might suit the home roaster, who wants something larger and more substantial than a Hottop and other consumer roasting appliances. The summary statement, if you don't want to read any further, is that nothing much has changed and there are no "reasonably priced" 1-2lb roasters out there that would interest all but the most well-heeled visitors to this website. My own setup, which after it was all said and done cost me around $4K, but over the course of a couple of years, has little serious competition, even now. What I have now is a 1lb/ 500g knockoff of an ancient Probat/Burns, that has been hacked with a new burner, a thermocouple in the drum, and a custom built smoke hood. The roaster is no longer being imported by the company I got it from, so my setup is not even an option to those who would want to put up with the aggravations of modifying it, and the smoke and chaff one has to deal with coming out of it.

On to the Diedrich. As many know, Diedrich is a large roaster manufacturer now located in Northern Idaho, although previously in Southern California. There are historical relationships with the company that spun off Gloria Jeans and other cafe franchises, but the current corporate structure is now limited to coffee equipment manufacturing. They have come up with a "cute" 1lb, electrically operated coffee roaster that they are targeting at the home market:

http://www.diedrichroasters.com/homeroast.html

This is essentially a scale model of a big commercial drum roaster, made with exacting detail, in much the same way that detailed scale models are made of locomotives and other things that collectors collect. On close visual inspection this is what it purports to be, a very small, scaled down, version of a big drum roaster. I spent about half an hour at the Diedrich booth and came away impressed with the detail, but unimpressed with the practicality and price of this product. I should add that they have a 2lb version of this roaster in development, that will also be electrically operated, but which is not yet even in the prototype phase. Presumably it will be even more expensive.

As pictured, at least if you could keep it clean, and could tolerate the smoke from the bean dumps at the end of roasting, it would fit into a modern kitchen. It draws a lot of amps and would probably need its own electrical circuit.

So what are the practical things I take issue with? For one thing, the price is simply way above what most dedicated home roasters would pay; around $5000 plus crating and shipping if you want such "optional" things as a cooling tray. In my conversations with their representative I had the impression that the cooling tray is not very efficient and that it takes 5 minutes to cool off the beans; with my own roaster this takes under 2 minutes. The design of the cooling tray, without stirring vanes has its limitations. My own roaster's cooling tray lacks stirring vanes also but it has a VERY powerful dedicated fan and the air movement more than compensates.

Controllability of the roaster's temperatures is via a 3-position electrical element switch and venting/dampers, of which there are two. Although this is more or less the same design (at least as regards airflow) of a bigger commercial drum roaster, one has to question the utility in such a small roaster. There will obviously be a significant learning curve in order to use this roaster well; don't worry, for hundreds of dollars you can take a course at Diedrich, but would have to budget your airfare and other expenses on top of the $5K for the roaster!

My opinion is that they should have greatly simplified the roaster design to reduce the learning curve, increase usability, and reduce the cost. They could have kept the overall "Lionel Train" type miniaturization, but simplified, if the intention was to put it into high end kitchens. OR, they could have offered a simplified version. I for one do not think that this sophisticated airflow design is necessary in a 1lb roaster, and they could have compensated by increasing the adjustibility of the heating element, making the 3-position switch into one that was infinitely adjustable.

At this price this roaster simply makes no sense other than for the odd high end homeowner who wants a cute toy-like coffee roaster in their kitchen, next to the Viking or Wolf Range, and the Subzero. I am assuming in this post that the roaster works well and produces tasty coffee, which could also be an issue I have not addressed. For the more serious home coffee roaster who wants something more substantial than a Hottop, and who does not want to use a BBQ drum, there are few rational choices. Before buying this Diedrich, however, I'd suggest buying a larger shop roaster, one of the many models that roast between a kg and 6lbs. Most of these can be used with smaller bean loads, and if you ever get tired of them, could be resold for a large percentage of what you paid for them. Prices for this sort of small shop roaster appear to be in the $6K-$8K range, not a whole lot more when you factor in the utility. This Diedrich roaster is not going to be easily resellable, in my opinion, and I doubt that very many real roasting operations would consider this a cost effective or useful sample roaster to put into their shop.

ken

Isn't this not far off from the price of a sample roaster?

Everman wrote:Isn't this not far off from the price of a sample roaster?

I guess I don't understand your question. If you can tell me exactly what is a "sample roaster," then maybe I'll take a stab at it. This is a term that has more than one definition, and it depends on whom you ask.

The idea behind a sample roaster, used professionally, is that a professional roaster can roast up small samples of coffee to evaluate them for flaws and/or to make purchasing decisions. A roaster receives many samples to evaluate for possible purchase in much greater quantities. Another use would be for small batch blending, so that you could try out a blending idea without having to roast a larger quantity of coffee to test out a blend.

The "sample roasters" I have seen on the SCAA exhibit floor (and on websites) are designed to roast very small quantities of coffee, several ounces to maybe half a pound, max. They are often sold in "dual barrel" configurations so that more than one sample can be roasted at a time.

I don't have any idea what the current crop of genuine sample roasters cost, but judging by the ones I have seen in person, they must be very expensive. Small roasting operations are not going to use these, they are going to use much cheaper options, everything from a popcorn popper to maybe a Hottop. Only a large volume, profitable, roasting operation is going to buy a current vintage Probat sample roaster.

Here is a link to the webpage showing the current version of a Probat sample roaster:

http://www.probatburns.com/Equipment/equip_frame.html

Other manufacturers make similar products.

In any event, these are not going to be used for production, they are used for testing purposes only; in fact, the webpage above is indexed under "lab equipment" on the Probat site. If you were the head roaster for Intelligentsia, I'm sure you could justify the cost, but I doubt that very many shops that do their own roasting can afford such a product.

The sample roaster I have, a copy of an ancient Probat/Burns design, is probably more typical of what used to be meant by the term "sample roaster." Although very similar in design to the current tiny Probat sample roaster seen in the above link, it will accommodate 500g per batch:



If the question is, do I think that very many serious roasting companies are going to spend $5,000 for this Diedrich Home Roaster, the answer is an emphatic NO. It is too cute, too complicated, and too expensive for what it offers. If they are going to use it for what a sample roaster is really used for, and if the Probats referenced above cost the same, they'll buy the Probats, or some other similar product. I would be interested to know how many, if any, of this small Diedrich have been purchased for use as real sample roasters; to me, it is unsuitable for that sort of usage.

But, the Diedrich is not in reality a sample roaster. It is a scale model of full sized Diedrich shop roaster. If you read their sales literature, they are looking for a class of customer that exists in very small numbers, if at all. On the one hand, they talk about having designed the thing for serious home roasters. The build quality and operational flexibility with all the airflow options makes sense in that light. But, the price is very high for what it is and what in reality it can do; roast 1lb of coffee without automation, requiring hands on attention throughout the roast. The throughput is an unimpressive 4lbs of green per hour.

The serious home roaster cares about roast quality, controllability of the roast, and price of the roaster. The price is too high and the batch size is too low to attract very many members of this target audience; if they want a low volume roaster, there are many other choices at a tiny fraction of the price.

The other potential audience is people with nice looking kitchens with expensive appliances who think it would be cool to have something like this in their kitchens. These people (for the most part) haven't a clue how to roast coffee and if they are going to use this thing without a lot of training, they are going to need automation, which this roaster does not offer. This sort of purchaser once they learn how much work is going to be involved, maybe having to attend the Dietrich Roasting course in Northern Idaho for 2 days, followed by a real learning curve, are going to head for the exits.

This is a very cool product that is designed for a target audience that in my view does not exist in large enough numbers for this to sell well. It is a niche product and the niche is tiny.

ken

I have a lot to learn about roasting, what you pictured is what I had in mind, also an example is here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/173954 And here too: http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasters_sample_pro.html Basically a drum roaster, either gas or electric, that can do 1-3 lbs with control over everything going on. I've wondered about building my own, how complicated that would be?

Everman wrote:I have a lot to learn about roasting, what you pictured is what I had in mind, also an example is here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/173954 And here too: http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasters_sample_pro.html Basically a drum roaster, either gas or electric, that can do 1-3 lbs with control over everything going on. I've wondered about building my own, how complicated that would be?

The first link deals with the Diedrich we are discussing here. If you read through the thread you will not get much more additional information, other than that the purchaser liked it, and learning how to roast with it was an involved process.

The second link deals with a 300g sample roaster that (it appears) Sweet Marias sold at one point but does not sell now. 300g is not too far above what you could get into the top end home roasters, such as a hottop.

I have a 500g roaster, pictured earlier in the thread, and in my view it is borderline adequate as regards throughput, for someone who is willing to put in the effort and expense to get it up and running. After all, as I noted before, there are consumer roasters readily available at a tiny fraction of the cost that are simple to operate and cost a tiny fraction as much.

Ed Needham, who posts on alt.coffee, has a website devoted to home roasting and on that website one can find many inventive attempts at making homebuilt roasters. I would refer you to that website for further information:

http://www.homeroaster.com/

If someone would manufacture a simple 1lb or 2lb drum roaster, at a price point of around $2,000, I think there would be a real market for it, given the enthusiasm for homeroasting and how much people willingly spend on their espresso gear.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:If someone would manufacture a simple 1lb or 2lb drum roaster, at a price point of around $2,000, I think there would be a real market for it, given the enthusiasm for homeroasting and how much people willingly spend on their espresso gear.

ken

I'd certainly jump on that bandwagon. These last couple of years I've tried figuring out just exactly what a sample roaster is- seems more intended for the professional craft roaster who's only other option is to roast 60 kg in his Probat, but rather than test roasting a batch that large, roasts it in the smaller 2-3 lb roaster to experiment (as well as crafting blends- many of the sample roasters have 2, 3 or 4 drums). I've come to the conclusion that unless you're in the coffee biz, there's no point in messing with something like that- but mainly because the learning curve is quite steep. Right now, there seems to be several of these high-end roasters intended at least in part for the home market (one made by Toper in Turkey, others are the San Franciscan and the Dietrich that Ken mentions here)- I've not seriously considered any of them because at that price, I want a flatter learning curve (not that I want to dumb down this wonderful hobby) and reliable/accurate heat-measuring and control. I consider myself a mediocre roaster at best (luckily, my income doesn't depend on it), and spending >/= $4000 is just too much for something that would likely require heavy modification or some intense "fiddling" during each roast-- I expect more for my money. Until somebody out there makes something that offers better control over transferring heat to coffee beans (in addition to a few other issues, but that's the big one for me), my simple sc/to is really hard to beat.

Ray

I'd disagree a roaster of this nature should be simplified for easier operation. Roaster control is the name of the game for profiling a roast! Maybe optional simplified operation for those who want push button operating.

OTOH I believe overall it's worse than you intimate as a one pound roaster! Yes that is it's rated maximum batch size. However, if it is indeed true to operational scale then when doing a max' batch size there'll be virtually no profile control capability simply requiring running flat out to get a roast done in a decent time. This is based on IR3 operation which is rated 1 to 7 pounds. But if doing more than 4# retaining much profile control goes out the window, 5# max for any hope of a semblance of profile control.

Personally I believe they blew it attempting to build a 1 pound drum roaster that'll run on 15A. Should have either required higher electrical rating or gas. Realistically a well made 1/2 to maybe 3/4# roaster, lame for 1#.

Well, maybe not a "flat" learning curve- but a simple knob that cranks the heat, and adequate ventilation to slow the upward ramp wouldn't seem too difficult to build. That along with a well-placed and good quality TC, for me would be key to controlling the roast. The only thing stopping me from looking into building my own drum roaster (not bbq style, though) is that I have no idea what dimensions work best for heat transfer (both drum volume/shape and batch size), to say nothing of what sort of heat element (or gas element) works best. I'm sure those are proprietary w/i the roaster mfg industry, right?

Ray

Rainman wrote:... but a simple knob that cranks the heat, and adequate ventilation to slow the upward ramp wouldn't seem too difficult to build. That along with a well-placed and good quality TC, for me would be key to controlling the roast...Ray

You mean, it's not reasonable to spend $4k and immediately hack the sucker to control the heater with a variac!? While personally I believe the two stage baffled air design would be adequate and upward ramp temp too fast a non issue, might as while control it with a variable control too. Heck, I already have the variable boost voltage controls for it, just need the IT to play with. I'd be interested to see how well it would profile a full pound with variable 20% voltage boost to heater. I'd like to see profile control extremes capable of French in minimum 15 minutes or a stretched out Cinnamon in 25. Agreed bean mass temp monitoring mandatory, additionally roast environment temp monitoring also highly desirable.

miKe mcKoffee wrote:I'd disagree a roaster of this nature should be simplified for easier operation. Roaster control is the name of the game for profiling a roast! Maybe optional simplified operation for those who want push button operating.

Roasting 1lb (or even 1KG) of coffee is fundamentally different than roasting the large quantities that commercial roasters roast in larger commercial roasting equipment. Granted, the process is the same, and same chemical reactions occur in the coffee, but it is the difference between piloting a small barge vs. captaining an oil tanker! Granted, you need just as much control over the roast, but controlling a 1lb or 2lb roast does not require fancy dampers and the sort of stuff one finds on bag sized roasters.

That's the point I was trying to make; not that you don't need control, but that you can get the degree of control that you need without resorting to taking a huge roaster and downsizing it to roast 1lb, with the same controls as you find on the big roaster.

For true sample roasting purposes, real roasting companies would not want to bother with dampers and all that sort of stuff to roast the quantities they need to roast for true sample roasting purposes; that is why *real* sample roasters roast small quantities measured in grams and are very simply designed. Extending this to the 1-2lb roaster class, you don't need this sort of design detail either, because roasting 1 or 2 pounds of coffee is more similar to roasting half a pound, than it is to roasting a 132lb bag of coffee.

ken