Ken Fox wrote:so why can't we get anybody to build this thing?

ken

It'll be interesting to see how the SCAA "Best New Product: Coffee or Tea Preparation or Serving Equipment (Consumer)" awarded to the soon to be released 1# Behmor 1600 Roaster actually performs for the extremely picky home roaster. But hey even if not perfect by some of our standards, at MSRP $399 and talked about street pricing of $299 and now RONCO backing (and their infomercial marketing power) it highly likely is going to make a noticable impact on the home roasting community.

Ken Fox wrote:so why can't we get anybody to build this thing?

ken

I spoke to the owner of US Roaster Corp here in Oklahoma City about this very thing. Why dont you build a 2.5 lb roaster that could sell for $1,500 to $2,000 and sell it to consumers. First he started going through the parts:

- $320 for a big cast iron burner
- $500 for this part
- $285 for that part

And before you know it, he was up to $4000. I asked why he wouldn't use lower quality parts for lower demand machines and basically he said he just didnt want to support them when they broke down. He says that he builds machines so he doesnt have to have a bunch of followup with the buyer. So I suggested that the increased volume would create enough incentives for him to either staff up for it or farm it out. Then he explained that he had tried to have a Turkish company, then an Israeli company produce roasters inexpensively for him but the logistics were never satisfactory. They were late and missed parts and QC was horrible.

Bottom line... he really doesnt want to sell to home roasters because he sees it as a huge hassle. He is probably right.

OkcEspresso wrote:I spoke to the owner of US Roaster Corp here in Oklahoma City about this very thing. Why dont you build a 2.5 lb roaster that could sell for $1,500 to $2,000 and sell it to consumers. First he started going through the parts:

- $320 for a big cast iron burner
- $500 for this part
- $285 for that part

And before you know it, he was up to $4000. I asked why he wouldn't use lower quality parts for lower demand machines and basically he said he just didnt want to support them when they broke down. He says that he builds machines so he doesnt have to have a bunch of followup with the buyer. So I suggested that the increased volume would create enough incentives for him to either staff up for it or farm it out. Then he explained that he had tried to have a Turkish company, then an Israeli company produce roasters inexpensively for him but the logistics were never satisfactory. They were late and missed parts and QC was horrible.

Bottom line... he really doesnt want to sell to home roasters because he sees it as a huge hassle. He is probably right.

I know Dan, as he is the guy who sold me MY sample roaster. I met him for the first time in person last week, at the SCAA.

He's not the guy to do this thing, nor are any of the other first tier manufacturers. His market is businesspeople, people in the business of roasting coffee as professionals. He's not set up to deal with consumers. When I called him originally his first reaction was not to sell me a roaster, if my memory is correct after 5 years or whatever it has been since I placed the order (had to wait a number of months after the order was placed before I got it). He ultimately warmed up to the idea when I convinced him I was serious and I wasn't going to be a pain in his a**.

I think it can be done much more cheaply, but it is going to require someone who is either a 2nd or 3rd tier player in the roaster market, or someone not presently in that market now who is more of an entrepreneur with an interest in coffee.

If the Chinese can build everything under the sun for 25% of what it costs to build it here in North America, they are probably the people to build it, although the specifications will have to come from elsewhere.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:On to the Diedrich. As many know, Diedrich is a large roaster manufacturer now located in Northern Idaho, although previously in Southern California. There are historical relationships with the company that spun off Gloria Jeans and other cafe franchises, but the current corporate structure is now limited to coffee equipment manufacturing.

Not true. Martin Diedrich is the one who had the coffee shops, etc. Stephan Diedrich has always been in the roaster business.

They have come up with a "cute" 1lb, electrically operated coffee roaster that they are targeting at the home market:

http://www.diedrichroasters.com/homeroast.html

This is essentially a scale model of a big commercial drum roaster, made with exacting detail, in much the same way that detailed scale models are made of locomotives and other things that collectors collect.

Really bad analogy. A model train is a miniature of a real train, made for the express purpose of entertainment. While the Diedrich is a small roaster, it produces the exact same thing that a large roaster does - roasted coffee. So, much like a real train, it delivers the goods.

On close visual inspection this is what it purports to be, a very small, scaled down, version of a big drum roaster. I spent about half an hour at the Diedrich booth and came away impressed with the detail, but unimpressed with the practicality and price of this product. I should add that they have a 2lb version of this roaster in development, that will also be electrically operated, but which is not yet even in the prototype phase. Presumably it will be even more expensive.

Your point is? You can't afford it?

As pictured, at least if you could keep it clean, and could tolerate the smoke from the bean dumps at the end of roasting, it would fit into a modern kitchen. It draws a lot of amps and would probably need its own electrical circuit.

Lots of speculation - no experience. The roaster draws 8 Amps on low, 10 Amps on medium, and 12.8 Amps on high. As for smoke, there is none during roasting and very little when you dump the beans. We have a smoke alarm in the kitchen, it's never gone off even after multiple batches.

So what are the practical things I take issue with? For one thing, the price is simply way above what most dedicated home roasters would pay; around $5000 plus crating and shipping if you want such "optional" things as a cooling tray.

So basically, your just pissed that you don't have the income to afford it - sounds like a personal problem. My advice - make more money.

In my conversations with their representative I had the impression that the cooling tray is not very efficient and that it takes 5 minutes to cool off the beans; with my own roaster this takes under 2 minutes. The design of the cooling tray, without stirring vanes has its limitations. My own roaster's cooling tray lacks stirring vanes also but it has a VERY powerful dedicated fan and the air movement more than compensates.

It takes about 3 minutes to cool the roast. You stir it with a wooden spoon. Whew! That's a lot of work! The fan system works quite well to pull the air through the roast. Your "impression" is exactly that - just YOUR impression.

Controllability of the roaster's temperatures is via a 3-position electrical element switch and venting/dampers, of which there are two. Although this is more or less the same design (at least as regards airflow) of a bigger commercial drum roaster, one has to question the utility in such a small roaster.

Why? It works exactly the same way a larger roaster does. You go to 50:50 air at about 8 minutes and full roasting drum air at about 12 minutes. The fact you don't understand HOW to use it doesn't decrease the utility for someone who does.

There will obviously be a significant learning curve in order to use this roaster well; don't worry, for hundreds of dollars you can take a course at Diedrich, but would have to budget your airfare and other expenses on top of the $5K for the roaster!

Believe it or not - professional roasting equipment has a significant learning curve - even the "automated" models. If you can't handle the learning curve, then stick with your roaster. But, it does give a lot of control over the roast process if you choose to learn how to use it.

My opinion is that they should have greatly simplified the roaster design to reduce the learning curve, increase usability, and reduce the cost. They could have kept the overall "Lionel Train" type miniaturization, but simplified, if the intention was to put it into high end kitchens. OR, they could have offered a simplified version. I for one do not think that this sophisticated airflow design is necessary in a 1lb roaster, and they could have compensated by increasing the adjustibility of the heating element, making the 3-position switch into one that was infinitely adjustable.

Exactly HOW, would they simplify it? Again, the fact that you don't know how to use it, doesn't make it difficult. There is a point in the roast when you go from full by pass air to 50:50, and then another point when you go to full roasting drum air. This is exactly what you do with a larger roaster. I for one, think you're really trying to make a mole hill into a mountain.

At this price this roaster simply makes no sense other than for the odd high end homeowner who wants a cute toy-like coffee roaster in their kitchen, next to the Viking or Wolf Range, and the Subzero. I am assuming in this post that the roaster works well and produces tasty coffee, which could also be an issue I have not addressed. For the more serious home coffee roaster who wants something more substantial than a Hottop, and who does not want to use a BBQ drum, there are few rational choices. Before buying this Diedrich, however, I'd suggest buying a larger shop roaster, one of the many models that roast between a kg and 6lbs. Most of these can be used with smaller bean loads, and if you ever get tired of them, could be resold for a large percentage of what you paid for them. Prices for this sort of small shop roaster appear to be in the $6K-$8K range, not a whole lot more when you factor in the utility. This Diedrich roaster is not going to be easily resellable, in my opinion, and I doubt that very many real roasting operations would consider this a cost effective or useful sample roaster to put into their shop.

Except, you need: space for the roaster, dedicated gas service to the roaster location, and venting that will meets the requirements of the roaster installed by a professional. The Diedrich sits on the counter and is vented outdoors quite easily. In fact, a friend has his vented through his stove top vent hood through an adapter that fits in place of the vent hood filter screen.

As for how many they make - they've been selling 2-4 per month - you do the math. You have to understand that Stephan Diedrich did not do this roaster. He was away from the business being treated for a health problem, and the staff took it upon themselves to make the home roaster. He was not enthusiastic about the product, as he felt it would take away production staff from the larger roaster manufacturing. What's happened is that they've had to add employees to the company to address the demand for the product.

All of your speculation is exactly that - pure speculation, no information, and no real facts. What's the point?

swines wrote:Except, you need: space for the roaster, dedicated gas service to the roaster location, and venting that will meets the requirements of the roaster installed by a professional. The Diedrich sits on the counter and is vented outdoors quite easily. In fact, a friend has his vented through his stove top vent hood through an adapter that fits in place of the vent hood filter screen.

As for how many they make - they've been selling 2-4 per month - you do the math. You have to understand that Stephan Diedrich did not do this roaster. He was away from the business being treated for a health problem, and the staff took it upon themselves to make the home roaster. He was not enthusiastic about the product, as he felt it would take away production staff from the larger roaster manufacturing. What's happened is that they've had to add employees to the company to address the demand for the product.

All of your speculation is exactly that - pure speculation, no information, and no real facts. What's the point?

On the historical relationship between the coffee shops and the roaster mfr., I am quoting what I heard the Diedrich rep in the booth at the SCAA tell another person who asked about that. I know that this is a family and things have been divided up for a long time. Look up the word "relationship" in your dictionary for further information; it does not mean that they were "one company" in the past.

I give several times the price of one of these Diedrichs to charity every year; the price of the thing is inconsequential to me.

Thank you.

ken
p.s. My comments stand. The product as designed does not address the real market out there for a serious larger than 8oz roaster for the serious home roaster, who has "outgrown" the hottop level of product, and is not ready to buy a shop roaster for their house.

p.p.s. I already own a piece of "professional roasting equipment," to use your term, and in real dollars, allowing for inflation, I have as much or more in it as one of these Diedrichs cost today. I would be happy to compare my roast results with what comes out of that $5000 1lb Diedrich, and would expect them to be similar. That is assuming that the person operating the Diedrich knew what he was doing, and had some experience with it. I've been roasting with my (larger capacity) roaster for more than 4 years, and made a number of modifications to it which allow tight, active control of roast temperatures and profiling. It always helps to send samples of your roast results to other knowledgeable tasters for their opinion; not doing this allows one to become complacent about results based upon equipment rather than talent. I do this every 6-12 months, and it is something I'd recommend to anyone serious about the quality of their roast product.

miKe mcKoffee wrote:It'll be interesting to see how the ... Behmor 1600 Roaster actually performs ... it highly likely is going to make a noticable impact on the home roasting community.

Sorry to barge in on this lovefest , but I'm surprised that it's taken so long for the Behmor roaster to get mentioned on H-B. There are already over 200 posts on a CG thread. Mike's got it right: this product is far more likely to have a big impact on the home roasting community than the Diedrich roaster. If we're lucky, it will help drive the development of other reasonably priced home coffee roasting devices. IMHO this is a market niche waiting to be filled.

On the historical relationship between the coffee shops and the roaster mfr., I am quoting what I heard the Diedrich rep in the booth at the SCAA tell another person who asked about that. I know that this is a family and things have been divided up for a long time. Look up the word "relationship" in your dictionary for further information; it does not mean that they were "one company" in the past.

Well Ken, I guess your information MUST be better than mine - I got my information directly from Stephan Diedrich - however, I suppose he could be confused.

As to your insinuations about my opinions being based on my not being able to afford this thing: please be assured that I could order TEN of them tomorrow, write a check for them tomorrow afternoon without calling any bank or other financial institution, and it would have zero impact on my financial situation.
Thank you.

Then you should try one out before you make unsupported suppositions backed up only by your personal value judgements.

p.s. My comments stand. The product as designed does not address the real market out there for a serious larger than 8oz roaster for the serious home roaster, who has "outgrown" the hottop level of product, and is not ready to buy a shop roaster for their house.

I can't argue with that. There really is no good step between something like the Hottop and the Diedrich. Since there is no product that meets a certain price point with the features of a professional roaster for less money - you either pony up the money or not. But, if you look at it in the overall scheme of things you spend money on for entertainment - it's really not that much different than:

Audio systems, golf, fishing, musical instruments, horses, boats, recreational vehicles, motorcycles, classic cars, dog breeding/showing, astronomy, photography, gun sports, season sports tickets, home theater, car racing, woodworking, travel, fishing, scuba diving, etc. Oh, yes - let's NOT leave out - model trains.

You choose which things you want to spend money on for entertainment and allocate your resources to the activities that you find enjoyable. In this case, my wife has no "hobby" other than coffee and coffee roasting - there's no reason she shouldn't have the best piece of equipment currently available to enjoy doing that. If we'd of had the space for something like an IR-3, that's probably what we would have. But, she wanted it in the kitchen so that it was easily accessible - there is absolutely no way to work an IR-3 into that space as gas is not accessible and venting would be problematic. At this time, that leaves only an electrically powered roaster - the HR-1.

p.p.s. I already own a piece of "professional roasting equipment," to use your term, and in real dollars, allowing for inflation, I have as much or more in it as one of these Diedrichs cost today. I would be happy to compare my roast results with what comes out of that $5000 1lb Diedrich, and would expect them to be similar. That is assuming that the person operating the Diedrich knew what he was doing, and had some experience with it. I've been roasting with my (larger capacity) roaster for more than 4 years, and made a number of modifications to it which allow tight, active control of roast temperatures and profiling. It always helps to send samples of your roast results to other knowledgeable tasters for their opinion; not doing this allows one to become complacent about results based upon equipment rather than talent. I do this every 6-12 months, and it is something I'd recommend to anyone serious about the quality of their roast product.

If you're practiced using a frying pan and a wooden spoon - you can make reasonable roasts. As you've pointed out - you have to know the piece of equipment you're using. The Diedrich HR-1 is no different. It takes some practice and effort, as it has certain inherent performance characteristics that you have to master. Once you learn the response of the roaster, it is possible to turn out the same type of roast that you can do with something like a Diedrich IR-12.

We do much like you do, we trade roasts with several other people, and give coffee to other people for tasting. If you profile your roasts, then you've learned that cupping the roast is the key to getting even better results. The unfortunate thing with the Diedrich HR-1 is that the trowel is so small that you have to pull multiple samples during the roast at any one point to get enough beans to cup the first roast from City through FC+ (or wherever you like to stop) so that you can cup the beans to get an idea of where you want to concentrate on the roast level.

The trowel on the larger machines is big enough to pull a single sample at any point in the roast to give you enough beans for multiple people to cup the coffee. You end up pulling beans at 30 second intervals from about 13.5 minutes through the end of the roast (15-16 minutes). The trowel on the HR-1 requires you to take 3 samples to get enough beans to do this at any point in the roast. While this only takes about 10 seconds or so to pull the 3 samples, it's really not the same as doing a single point at 30 second intervals.

swines wrote:
Then you should try one out before you make unsupported suppositions backed up only by your personal value judgements.

Your post is unresponsive to what I have said about this roaster throughout this thread. I have assumed from the beginning that it roasts well and have said it is well-constructed.

I don't need to try one of these things to state that it is aimed at a very small niche market, e.g. well-healed people who are willing to pay $5K for a roaster whose design and cost is based largely on its appearance. I am much more interested in utility than appearance when it comes to a roaster. Perfectly competent commercial shop roasters with capacities 2 and 3 x as large as the Dietrich can be purchased for 20 to 30% more, and some of them do not take up so much space as to preclude their being placed in a garage or elsewhere in a home. I'm not suggesting that someone buy one of these, but if it were me and if I was going to choose between the Dietrich home roaster and one of those, without five second's additional thought I'd buy the shop roaster.

The home roaster market is well served up to roast capacities of half a pound; the Dietrich 1lb Home Roaster is NOT the logical bridge between the Hottop class of roaster and small shop roaster, anymore than a BMW 5-series bridges the gap between a small truck and an 18 wheeler.

The *real* market for home roasters who want a larger capacity, purpose built, roaster for their home than a Hottop, will be filled with something at a much lower price point. When it comes out, one can debate the quality of the roast product compared to other roasters based on results.

Enjoy your roaster; I'm sure it roasts well; for the price, it damn well better!

ken

Your post is unresponsive to what I have said about this roaster throughout this thread. I have assumed from the beginning that it roasts well and have said it is well-constructed.

And your posts completely ignore the utility of the piece of equipment to concentrate only on pejorative remarks about it and the people who may purchase it.

I don't need to try one of these things to state that it is aimed at a very small niche market, e.g. well-healed people who are willing to pay $5K for a roaster whose design and cost is based largely on its appearance.

Once again, you're making personal value judgements about the piece of equipment and people who use it with absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with it - -or apparently with people who use it. We did not buy the roaster because of its looks - but, because it gives the same control as a professional level drum roaster - but in a package that will fit on a counter top.

I am much more interested in utility than appearance when it comes to a roaster. Perfectly competent commercial shop roasters with capacities 2 and 3 x as large as the Dietrich can be purchased for 20 to 30% more, and some of them do not take up so much space as to preclude their being placed in a garage or elsewhere in a home.

Please name one drum roaster that fits on a countertop and is electric that has equal build quality and roast control capability. The HR-1 fits nicely on a counter top, in our case on a lazy susan so that it can be easily disconnected from the vent and turned around for cleaning the fan and inside of the roaster. I haven't seen one roaster that is as small as the HR-1 that is an electrical counter top roaster with the build quality, capability, and control of the HR-1. Can you give me a manufacturer + model number?

The space the HR-1 occupies is the only place in the house where a roaster can be located. So, again your statements don't fit my situation, and probably many other peoples' situations. What works for you doesn't work for everyone - and is not a universal data point applicable to 99.995% of people roasting coffee. A point you seem bent on ignoring - no matter how much information is given to you.

I'm not suggesting that someone buy one of these, but if it were me and if I was going to choose between the Dietrich home roaster and one of those, without five second's additional thought I'd buy the shop roaster.

As I stated previously (and you've apparently ignored) - I'd have purchased an IR-3 IF WE HAD A PLACE TO PUT IT. Again, something you choose to ignore with your statements. You need to have a space for the roaster. Wants and statements like yours are fine - but, at some point the reality of the situation is - you have to have room + the ability to get the utilities and venting required.

The home roaster market is well served up to roast capacities of half a pound; the Dietrich 1lb Home Roaster is NOT the logical bridge between the Hottop class of roaster and small shop roaster, anymore than a BMW 5-series bridges the gap between a small truck and an 18 wheeler.

And this ubiquitous statement is based upon.....? What? Certainly nothing more than your personal opinion - unless you have some metrics to back it up.

Again, your analogy makes absolutely NO sense - BMW - pickup - 18 wheeler? Hmmmm..... Which one is which and why is this even remotely applicable? The roaster isn't a bridge between a Hottop roaster and a shop roaster - where did you get that idea? It's a piece of equipment that is for people who want to roast more than a Hottop (or like roaster) with the control of what you call a "shop roaster."

We find the 1-lb size perfect for our needs as you can easily do 3 lbs in 1 hour if needed. We usually roast 1 pound of three different types of coffee and trade with other people. Anymore than that and it would only go stale. We really have no need to do more unless we were going to do it commercially - we don't do that.

The *real* market for home roasters who want a larger capacity, purpose built, roaster for their home than a Hottop, will be filled with something at a much lower price point. When it comes out, one can debate the quality of the roast product compared to other roasters based on results.

Enjoy your roaster; I'm sure it roasts well; for the price, it damn well better!

You see, once again you've totally ignored the reason we have the roaster. There is no other roaster available that meets all of the requirements we have. My wife was interested in going beyond the smaller roaster we had, and the Diedrich is the only option at this time.

Your prognostications about the future are all well and good - but, I like dealing in reality not a parallel universe or the wish factory you seem to inhabit.

As for the wish roaster that is going to come out at some indeterminate time in the future that's going to blow all roasters into the weeds for $29.95 - that will be great but it won't make the HR-1 obsolete. As for roast quality of Ken's Uber Roaster of the Future - that remains to be seen. I can tell you there is a real difference in what comes out of the HR-1 compared to a Hottop or an IRoast or an HG/DB, or most all of the other home roasters simply because of the total control the HR-1 gives --- but, most importantly, the repeatability of roast profiles.

It works like a professional level roaster (IR-3, IR-7, IR-12 for example) - just in a smaller package.

swines wrote:And your posts completely ignore the utility of the piece of equipment to concentrate only on pejorative remarks about it and the people who may purchase it... Once again, you're making personal value judgments about the piece of equipment and people who use it with absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with it - -or apparently with people who use it.

I contacted Ken offline and can assure you that he speaks his opinion as someone who belongs to the target market segment, not as a critic of the purchase decision of a particular person such as yourself. Please, in the spirit of the site's Guidelines for productive online discussion, let's move on. Thanks...