Where do I start?

To continue improving as a home roaster and enjoy consistently great coffee, one needs to be able to cup, identify faults, troubleshoot and repeat.

I'm very frustrated by my inability to use cupping as a method to identify what's wrong with my roasts. I'm very hesitant to identify bad coffee as bad, even when I don't like how it tastes simply because I can't say what's wrong with it. It's like every bad green/roast is "sour" to me, that's it!!! The only fault I can relatively reliably catch is burnt taste.

I don't have the same problem with food or other drinks. I'm usually an above avg (avg being non-discriminating Joe) taster/critic. I also don't think I have this problem with good coffee, I usually recognize it immediately and can come up with decent descriptors for it -- just like what I usually do with most food.

Case in point: I roasted two coffees on the same day: a light roasted Yemen (SM's) and a medium roasted Mexican (Has Bean). They both suck, both as brewed and espresso. I had them on the same cupping table to help me get something out of this exercise, but to no avail. I only know they both suck but can't say for sure what's wrong with each of them, all I could say is that they're both "sour". Even once they cooled down, I can't tell; and yeah, one was C+ and the other was FC/FC+!

I think it is one or more prominent coffee-specific bad taste that impairs my ability to taste beyond it, some form of ugly acidity that I am too sensitive to maybe? I'm hoping there is an old-cupper's trick they use with newb's that could help me deal with this.

Guys, this issue must be one of the most important coffee-things for me to take care of and I'd very much appreciate your help.

Unripe coffees taste sour because the acids are there, but the sugars aren't. Moreover, the technically better the roast of an unripe coffee, that is, one that avoids charring, baking and finishes fast, the worse it will taste. This is why old school roasters did half hour roasts to bake out all the acidity-- the coffees they used sucked.

If you like crisp Loire white wines, lemonades that are not overly sweetened; and the cooled coffee tastes sour, it's because it's unripe and unsweet. If you don't like lemonades and crisp whites; you may be more inclined to darker or slower roasts.

The easiest way to find out is to taste coffees that have ripe acidity and are usually roasted light. Buy yourself a nice fresh Yrgacheffe or Panama from a good roaster and see how it tastes. Ripe acidity in Yemen or Mexican coffees is just about as common as a blue moon; these are the classic "bake for a half hour and rest for a week" coffees because they are always rough, but sometimes get interesting roast flavors.

Are you saying what I perceive as "sour" is really that and not an inability to specify what exactly is wrong?

I sure hope so, but a slower and a bit darker roast of the same Yemen was just bland....and sour.

I just recalled another example, a dried out Ethiopian tastes sour to me too, does that make sense?

I don't talk about people; I talk about coffee:

• Acidity + nothing = sour. Acidity + sugar = crisp, winey, tasty.
• Unripe coffees = acidity plus nothing; ripe coffees = acidity plus sugars
• Don't buying unripe coffee

If your taste is unusual; you need physiologist, not a coffee hobbyist. If you think your taste is unusual; you need a psychologist, not a coffee hobbyist. That's all I have to say on the subjectivity of taste.

Thanks for trying, Jim. I'm not sure how that helps. I'm sure many started cupping confused and eventually shook off the confusion. Plus, the coffees I buy are from recommended vendors so it shouldn't be outright unripe coffee.

This thing I presented on my 1st post shouldn't be a unique thing, is it, guys? Any other info I could add to clarify what I need help with?

Your questions are unanswerable except by a person standing next to you; so please do not complain if I don't answer them.

If you believe something is unusual about the way you taste, drink coffee with other people who enjoy coffee. I'm sure there are one or two other people in the Netherlands who drink good coffee; get together with them and see how you and they react.

I've had coffee with several dozens of people who post on line, and all but one of them had good taste in coffee (and that odd one was mostly on-line to fish for acclaim about his roasting inventions). The chances are overwhelming that if you spend all this time drinking coffee, its core tastes strongly appeal to you. In the best coffees, these core tastes appear as purely and uncluttered as can be; and that is why every coffee on-liner I've met (except that one) has been a very good judge of coffee quality.

Just trust yourself.

Now I feel for espresso newb's...

So maybe I'm not phrasing my questions right, maybe I need the extra hand holding, maybe a question or two would clarify what's confusing me, or maybe just a nice link to get me to use the right terms...is that too much to ask? If it is, then my questions aren't ones you should be wasting your time at.

I hope we are not discouraging other people from chiming in, I'm very keen on working my way thru this.

Cup early, cup often, with others. Practice, practice, practice. It comes from time, patience, and energy with folks who are as passionate at coffee as you are. I don't claim to be a great cupper but have learned everything at the table with others where you build on one another's expertise, vocabulary, and learnings.

I don't discourage your questions but I would find it impossible to learn by questions and answers. It is much more of an experiential learning.

B|Java

I know virtually nothing about roasting and cupping, but I think it may be worth a reminder that under extracted coffee often taste sour, too. Could it be that your preparation for cupping is flawed? Perhaps you're not grinding fine enough and/or not steeping long enough?

coffee.me wrote:Thanks for trying, Jim. I'm not sure how that helps. I'm sure many started cupping confused and eventually shook off the confusion. Plus, the coffees I buy are from recommended vendors so it shouldn't be outright unripe coffee.

This thing I presented on my 1st post shouldn't be a unique thing, is it, guys? Any other info I could add to clarify what I need help with?

Few great cuppers trained alone without mentors. Cupping at the same table with pros or seasoned amateurs and sharing your impressions is very helpful, if not essential. My suggestion would be to network with other amateurs in your area through H-B or other sites and start cupping together and sampling each other's roasts. You may even find friendly roasters or cafes who will host you.