I strongly agree with the value of attending group cupping. It's the live collective expressions of the coffees that can't be gathered on-line. I go to a nice cafe where I also got to know the owner/barista and there's actually a chair with bar next to the synesso. On slower days I'll bring in roasts and we'll sneak a few pulls inbetween customers. The shots will also be tried by others working there. It's so priceless and helps me sort out what I question in the mirror. It's easy to over think all this and then the brain start effecting the tasting. The reason I'll rarely look into a restaurant kitchen even given the chance if I plan on eating there.
Having a cupping with George Howell turned my world right-side up.

If you're in the Netherlands you should get in touch with Ivo van der Putten, http://www.ongebrand.nl ... he was an altie back in the day and knows how to cup. Otherwise try getting hold of 5 or 6 different beans and roasting them to identical profiles. If you taste the same "fault" in all of them, it's your roast or your palate.

Given the absolute lack of ANYTHING in common between the Mexican and Yemen coffees, it's unlikely to be a common bean defect. I've cupped quite a few Yemen Mokhas, and excess acidity (or any acidity at all!) has never been a problem.

Alan

I hear you guys, definitely going to look for someone to learn from/with in person, thanks.

Alan Frew wrote:If you taste the same "fault" in all of them, it's your roast or your palate.
[...]
I've cupped quite a few Yemen Mokhas, and excess acidity (or any acidity at all!) has never been a problem.

I think it's the roast, I'm just not sure if saying "it's sour" is enough to seek help diagnosing the exact issue. Even if my palate plays a role here, it would be minimal.

About this sourness
It's yucky, lingers on the tongue forever (especially the back, back sides?) and hurts the stomach. It's visible even in a cappuccino, especially as an aftertaste. It's loud, overpowering any other sweetness or origin traits. It's like severe underextraction but not really quite so, and high temp brewing doesn't make it go away.

My usual reaction to such a "sour" roast is extending the next batch's drying phase by a minute, and so on; sometimes that helps, sometimes not. And it didn't help this new Yemen or the old dry Ethiopian, they'd just taste ashy with the added drying time, maybe even sour and the ashyness is masking it. This "sourness" is still there even with darker FC++ roasts. Is there another way to deal with such a "sour" roast?

If someone asks does it taste like:
Lemon sourness? maybe
Vinegar? maybe
Wine? maybe
Green grass? maybe
Rotten fruit? maybe
Swimming pool? maybe
...and so on! But I can't wait till I'm able to differentiate between these and that makes asking for help or searching for answers almost impossible.

I think you need to step back and clarify things before you proceed to identify (perceived?) faults in your roasts. Just a suggestion here from my outside perspective.

Go directly to doing some formal cuppings as if selecting for a quanity of greens to purchase...weeding out the defective and lesser lots and finding a clear winner you would "bet the farm on" like the pro's need to do when buying lots.

Pick an origion that you have a "known" outstanding sample from, then order some small amounts from different sources of the same origion country. (think 6-8 samples). Now, do an identical cupping roast and formal "blind" cupping of them...have a score sheet to make notes as you smell, taste, and allow to cool, then smell, and taste them again.

You're learning to pick out the small differences that will start building an inventory in your memory of the differences that add up to sour/sweet balance, acidity, and so on. I think these things will translate more to when you are trying to identify if the greens are sub-standard or your roast profile needs adjustments.
I don't think there is any judgement that we can make here about what you are experiencing.

coffee.me wrote:My usual reaction to such a "sour" roast is extending the next batch's drying phase by a minute, and so on; sometimes that helps, sometimes not. And it didn't help this new Yemen or the old dry Ethiopian, they'd just taste ashy with the added drying time, maybe even sour and the ashyness is masking it. This "sourness" is still there even with darker FC++ roasts. Is there another way to deal with such a "sour" roast?

As Jim mentioned, if you have unripe coffee cherries you will get sour, if you have a known bean that has adequate sweetness...try this with your roasting instead:

Don't extend the drying phase, but instead slow down the "middle" around the 340-350F range before 1C. I mean like around a minute more than your roast would usually proceed through this range. Considering your roast is not running terribly long (depending variety of course, but lets pick 16+ minutes here) you should have a clear difference in the sour/sweet compared to a roast you do not "allow" this adjustment too.

At any rate, don't get discouraged...just keep trying suggestions...sooner or later you'll get through it.

Pat, thanks for your input.

danetrainer wrote:Don't extend the drying phase, but instead slow down the "middle" around the 340-350F range before 1C. I mean like around a minute more than your roast would usually proceed through this range. Considering your roast is not running terribly long (depending variety of course, but lets pick 16+ minutes here) you should have a clear difference in the sour/sweet compared to a roast you do not "allow" this adjustment too.

Ah, the ramp (middle) leg is something I always went thru asap (while avoiding too high an ET). My roasts (on a modded HT-B) are relatively quick, 11-13 minutes: 3:30-5:00 drying, 3:00-4:00 BT300F to 1st crack, then 2:30-4:30 1st hints of 1st crack to dump. I never thought of extending the middle part to rid of sourness, always thought a faster roast here maximized sweetness. Thanks for this, will try it next roast (of this Mexican).

Seems like extending the roast would be the next step, maybe try extending each phase separately. Then adding a little bit to each phase as well. Maybe telling us how you have roasted these"sour" beans would help. I know when I had my hottop(ive since sold it) that I ended up with sour roasts all the time. Mainly because I didnt know what I was doing. And in order for me to get a "normal" roast time (under 15 mins) I would have a really sort finish phase(2 to 3 mins), and a pretty low drop temp. It was because my charge temps were so low, that it took forever to get up to get to first crack.(sort of an unintentional diedrich profile). And I didnt really feel like I had that much control once I turned the heat down.

Anyway im assuming you have tried roasting these coffees a bunch of different ways, and they have all came out sour? Maybe a quick outline of the profiles youve tried? Like time to drying phase over, time to first and temp, then time and temp to drop?

danetrainer wrote:I think you need to step back and clarify things before you proceed to identify (perceived?) faults in your roasts. Just a suggestion here from my outside perspective.

Go directly to doing some formal cuppings as if selecting for a quanity of greens to purchase...weeding out the defective and lesser lots and finding a clear winner you would "bet the farm on" like the pro's need to do when buying lots.

And just to confirm because his language isn't entirely clear, Max's subject says ...Cupping... but in his initial post he just says brewed and as espresso. Are you doing an SCAA or similar cupping protocol? If you're careful with dose, water temp and quantity, and steep time on a formal cupping you'll rule out brewing and shot errors. It sounds like you're getting decent roasts so it surprises me that you're getting so much sourness.

Planned Mexican roast results are in:

                  | OP, 1st (sour) roast | 2nd (palatable) roast
--------------------------------------------------------------
Charge to BT300F  |        4:30          |        4:10
BT300F to 1C Start|        4:30          |        5:10
1C start to dump  |        2:45          |        3:05
--------------------------------------------------------------
       TOTAL      |       11:45          |       12:25


1st roast was extreme, impossible to drink or taste anything beyond the sourness.
2nd roast was balanced (thanks!) but bland, not sour or bitter in any bad way, but not featuring what other people said it does (black cherry, funk, chocolate)...it was simply good coffee, but not the great coffee we around here buy.

I wish I understood better, but it seems the original sourness was indeed caused by a too short of a ramp. The slightly shorter drying wasn't by design, just unexpected roaster behavior and I don't know if it had any effect on the outcome? Also the development part was longer but to the exact same roast degree (say 15sec pre 1st snaps of 2nd).

I'm very encouraged by this. What would you suggest I try for my next roast of this bean to bring out what it was supposed to offer (black cherry, funk, chocolate)?

another_jim wrote:Ripe acidity in Yemen or Mexican coffees is just about as common as a blue moon; these are the classic "bake for a half hour and rest for a week" coffees because they are always rough, but sometimes get interesting roast flavors.

Have you, yourself, tasted a pro roast of this Mexican coffee that you describe the flavors you are expecting?
The only Mexican I have ever roasted was a decaf...early on in my days of roasting with a Behmor.

A great exercise when you are attempting to refine your roasting skills and developing profiles is to have access to a pro roasted bean that you can buy green and then work on comparing your results.

another_jim wrote:The easiest way to find out is to taste coffees that have ripe acidity and are usually roasted light. Buy yourself a nice fresh Yrgacheffe or Panama from a good roaster and see how it tastes.

In my drum roaster I am not afraid to take roasts longer than "what sounds normal" some beans will indeed turn baked or ashy, but others (typically hard bean/high grown) will develop the flavors we expect from them. I have some Panama beans that if I roast in a 12-13 minute range give disappointing results, yet slowing down the roast to 15-16 minutes give spectacular results. This, however is not the case with many of my Ethiopian beans, or some other high grown centrals.

If I had to guess to what to try next for the Mexican bean you are working with (and having no experience with the roaster you use) I would slow the heat applied after 1C, trying to finish 30-60 seconds longer. You should also try it at different "finish" levels now that you have developed the middle of the roast.