Please excuse the redundancy with these types of threads, but dialogue specific to the needs of the inquirer is often far more valuable than reading 100s of other threads, though I have done that also.

The basics; the demands: Right now I roast for my wife and myself with a popcorn popper. The local community has caught on to my coffee exploits (a recent article from the place that I work helped that, along with a very tight-knit community) and I'm getting a lot of requests of people interested in buying coffee from me. In fact, the place that I work currently buys around 50lbs a month from a local (read: not very good coffee) roaster, but is very interested in buying coffee from me.

The basics; the needs: Right out of the gate it looks like I could have a small roasting business on my hands and I could probably justify buying a 1kg+ roaster, but I think the best course of action would be to get a Quest M3 and learn roasting--sell to a few of the interested and see where it goes--learning the market, the coffee, the process, figure out how passionate I really am about it, and then upgrade if the demand is there.

The reason i'm posting is because I want to make sure there's not something I'm missing here. If there's an overwhelming consensus that I should get X roaster instead of B roaster, then I'd like to know that up front. I don't think I need to worry about automated profiles or anything like that just yet... this step is just aimed at getting my feet wet and testing the market and I think I can do that with a M3 unless I'm missing something here.

Thoughts? Opinions?

My opinion is that you have 2 choices for small batch, entry level roasting.

If the popcorn popper is working for you, a used Sonofresco at less than $2k is an affordable place to start roasting in commercial quantities. That's an easy and fun and readily available option. They have excellent customer service and it's a pretty well built machine.

If you want to learn drum roasting, the 1 lb (500 gram) Huky is a good option. There's a ton of info on this forum about everything you can do with one.

The Quest has its charms, but I'd avoid electric for any commercial application. Plus, the batch size is pretty small.

I have owned Sonofresco roasters and have briefly roasted on a Huky. At a sub $2k price point, these would be my choices.

Obviously, you can spend more money and you will get more of nearly everything, but no matter what you do, you'll learn something and eventually probably end up with more and better coffee.

It's a "win/win."

At 50 lbs. a month, if you are looking at being the supplier for your place of employment, with a 1kg roaster that would roughly be 25 roasts a month for that one customer. That would mean an average approaching one roast a day, or some long sessions on the weekend. Seven consecutive roasts on a Saturday at around 30 minutes each total time (including blending, roasting, cleaning, bagging), is 3.5 hours. Add maintenance to that. My point? Look at larger roasters.

What it comes down to with this decision is whether this roaster purchase is for a roaster which can eventually handle a commercial load, or whether it's for something you can learn on until you make up your mind whether you like roasting enough to go semipro. If you're not sure about the next step, the second option seems like a pretty good idea. Not only is it a good idea, but -- if I'm not mistaken -- it's your intention and forms the basis of your request for equipment advice.

If that's the course you're going to navigate, there are three, under $2000, commercially (more or less) available roasters which would suit: HotTop; Huky 500; and Quest M3.

I learned on an HT, but that was a few years ago before the Huky and Quest hit the market. Try asking specific questions about those three. I really don't know enough about you or any of the roasters to make a specific recommendation, other than to say that if you're planning on roasting more than 5# a week, a 1 pounder will make your weekends considerably less hectic than a half pounder like the HT or Quest.

Your experience roasting with a popcorn roaster will only go so far translating to the skills necessary to profile and produce good roasts with a modern, drum roaster.

On the other hand, experience with a good, electric drum goes a long way to understanding what you'll eventually be doing with a smaller (2 - 3kg), commercial gas roaster. But the profiles don't cross from roaster to roaster exactly. That's partly because unless they're designed specifically for the purpose -- the way Diedrich and Giesen sample roasters are designed to develop profiles for those companies larger roasters -- every roaster is different; and more specifically, the little, home roasters aren't as agile as their larger commercial brothers.

There are several guys on H-B who were real artists with their HTs, moved to gas, and ran into a steep (but rewarding) learning curve. Germantown Rob is especially eloquent on the subject, you might want to try a PM.

Just in case the situation isn't sufficiently unclear let me throw a little mud in the water and suggest giving some thought to a 500g, commercial, sample roaster... if, that is, you can afford to break the $2000 barrier. There are a number of excellent alternatives, including the Bella 800, North TJ-068 (electric), and USRC 1lb Sample Roaster (lots of USRC users on H-B, with more to come soon).

Let go of any preconceptions you gained with your popcorn machine roaster, and ask lots of questions. The more you know, the more you'll have to obsess over.

Good luck,
Rich

Hi Ryan,

There's already a lot of great advice in this thread, so I won't pile on with repetition.

However, I want to encourage you that I think you're on the right track.

I had a great conversation with Steve Green (osanco) about starting a roasting business. The main theme of that conversation was about was size of roaster to start in. His point (and I agree) is that you want to start with something smaller and not too expensive. That way if you decide its not for you, the bank isn't broken.

It sounds like an exciting time for you. Having that demand up front is always a nice way to start a business!

Good luck!

Andrew

The Huky keeps coming up again and again. IM(uneducated)O that seems like a "no brainier" because of the price, but if the headaches of this machine are true then I'm sort of wasting my time.

I guess the real question here is this: can I adequately learn all the fundamental lessons on a M3? Does it have the capacity (no pun intended) to teach me most of the lessons I will require to become a seasoned roaster? Or does the operation of the M3 kind of conclude within it's self, and upgrading to a bigger light commercial unit would be like reinventing the wheel?

If the golden solution is dropping 3k on a Mini 500 or 4k on a USRC roaster then that's what I need to plan on doing. I'm just hesitant investing such a large amount of money when the reality is I know very very little about roasting. Using a popcorn popper to turn the beans from green to brown is, well, about that simple, but at the same time I don't want to get an M3 if i'm going to be wasting my time with all things considered.

For those of you who learned on a HT, M3, Huky, etc. and upgraded later on, what were your experiences like? Do you look back and wish you would have done anything differently?

As with any "business" plan, I could invest $4-6k and realize it wasn't worth it and then try to sell everything to recoup my losses. With getting a M3 if the business part of it didn't pan out, I would be left with a relatively inexpensive machine that I could roast coffee for myself and a few close friends forever and it really wouldn't be any skin off my back. So the business part of the equation says go as cheap but practical as possible. On the flip side, though, I know that I need to select the right machine or all of this could be in vain. Part of this decision also rests upon selecting a machine that produces a very good roast, because by 'testing the market' I'm going to need to put forth a great product immediately to truly see the potential, and, naturally, to hook clients.

I'm starting to talk in circles, but I'm having a difficult time putting my thoughts on paper because I don't really know what I want, or need or should do. I guess that's why I'm here.

The solution is simple. First get contract from your place for those 50lbs a month (on paper and signed) and then buy real roaster and dive into it. Roasting is not something hard that you cannot learn, its not black art and pretty much to get you started everything is here on these forums. Simple starting roasting profiles included...

Your problem is not roaster really, your problem is how to get customers to get returns on your investment (if you are serious about making this for profit endeavor). If you can get contract from your place for 50lbs a month then you can commit funds to buy real roaster with capacity to support that much roasting. You could easily calculate your ROI then based on that contract alone.

If this is only hobby and you are not really serious about business then get HotTop or Quest or whatever... It does not matter.

There is a learning curve and I wouldn't be trying to sell and alienating customers from the getgo. After achieving acceptable roasts, which will take time, then sell, giveaway your roasts. Don't sell/giveaway the failures you'll have at first.

Marvin

Personally, I'm steering everyone away from electric. I like both the electric TJ-068 and the TJ-067, but you get enough headroom with the gas TJ-067 to do 1500 gram batches.

That 3 lb finished batch every 15 minutes makes it much easier for a guy to actually earn some money.

In terms of ease of use, the variable fan speed control, pretty good gauge and needle valve gas control, and the logging stuff that the roaster comes with makes it easy to get a drinkable and potentially saleable roast by the third try. What's more, I often walk my guys through their first roast on the phone just to make sure they have a feel for the process before they have to fly solo.

I'm not claiming that you'll be a master roaster or that the TJ-067 is intrinsically superior to any other modern commercial drum roaster. I just think this is the most sophisticated and best built 1 kg roaster that you can get to your door for less than $4500.

I do and will continue to recommend the Sonofresco and the Huky to guys in your position. Candidly, we take about 5 calls per day and I answer this way at least once nearly every day.

I think the Quest is an excellent sample roaster, but the batch size is too small to build any kind of business on.

That said, and to echo BDL who is usually always spot on, any roaster upgrade is going to be a step up on your learning curve. You have a myriad of good choices. There really isn't any wrong answer. Buy what makes sense to you, roast some coffee, impress some people, and see where it goes.

First, +1 to everything Steve (osanco) wrote, and FWIW, he's consistently spot on.

Ryantheroaster wrote:I guess the real question here is this: can I adequately learn all the fundamental lessons on a M3?

Yes and no. You can learn the basics of profiling. The M3 -- like most electric roasters -- lacks the agility that's pretty common with gas roasters. That means the roast master is more or less stuck with his "proactive" planning and can't adjust on the fly to stay with the planned profile when the beans decide to improvise.

The ten most important lessons are:

• 1. Using cupping and sample roasting to construct profiles;
  2. Using cupping to evaluate and tweak profiles;
  3. Writing (or plotting on graph paper or with software) your proposed profiles before executing them;
  4. Not bull$hitting yourself about your profiles, but actually recording them before executing them;
  5. Not bull$hitting yourself about your cupping results;
  6. Understanding that "on purpose," is what makes the difference between craft and bull$hit;
  7. Cupping;
  8. Cupping;
  9. No bull$hitting; and
  10. Cupping

Note that none of these lessons are roaster-size related. Also, worth noting that the other stuff takes practice, but it's mostly mechanical, related to specific bean properties, or developing a particular roast style.

Does it have the capacity (no pun intended) to teach me most of the lessons I will require to become a seasoned roaster?

Sort of. You might be getting the idea that there's no clear cut answer. If there are takeaways here, they're "no clear cut answer," "no bull$hit," and "cupping."

Or does the operation of the M3 kind of conclude within it's self, and upgrading to a bigger light commercial unit would be like reinventing the wheel?

"Operation of the M3 kind" ain't bad.

I don't know about "reinventing the wheel," but it's going to take you a few dozen roasts just to get used to using any new to you roaster. A few dozen more to get used to real time plotting if you've never done that before.

And of course every new bean is an adventure in profiling.

It took me nearly fifty roasts with my USRC (which is pretty easy roaster) to get sufficiently adept so that I wasn't making too many mistakes and doing most things more or less on purpose.

One of the nicer things about having a 250g or 500g roaster is that it doesn't cost you a ton of beans to check for defects, figure out the roast event temps, or create a basic profile. Doing those things in a 5kg roaster becomes expensive very quickly.

A word about roasting economics
I roast between 5 and 10lbs of greens a week, use about 2lbs myself, and sell the rest to a few "customers" whom I charge the cost of beans and bags. If I doubled that, and amortized the cost of my equipment over a century or so, I'd still lose money. It may be possible to break even roasting and selling a 100lbs a month, but barely.

Try plugging some numbers into your "business plan," and see how they work.

Unless roasting is something you already love, don't go into this with the idea of making money. The best most of us can hope for with sales is the pride of knowing people like our work.

On the other hand, as my dad used to say, the best investment you can make is in yourself.

If the golden solution is dropping 3k on a Mini 500 or 4k on a USRC roaster then that's what I need to plan on doing.

The golden solution to which problem?

Also, sadly, a USRC is $6K. No one needs one. But if it's what you want, get it. I did, and it's made me very happy.

I'm just hesitant investing such a large amount of money when the reality is I know very very little about roasting. Using a popcorn popper to turn the beans from green to brown is, well, about that simple, but at the same time I don't want to get an M3 if i'm going to be wasting my time with all things considered.

Wish I could give you a straight answer, but I don't think there's anything which addresses all of your desires. You're going to have to guess and prioritize.

I'm starting to talk in circles, but I'm having a difficult time putting my thoughts on paper because I don't really know what I want, or need or should do. I guess that's why I'm here.

Organizing your thoughts enough to write them down can be as much help as even the best advice.

Cupping,
Rich