another_jim wrote:If you enjoy the process and your goal is to become a good home roaster, I have one overall suggestion: stay in touch; be familiar with the best coffees, best roasters and best practices.
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That does rather beg the question, what are the best coffees, best roasters and best practice? A hell of a lot of what is promoted as such is nothing of the sort in my opinion. Just because someone has set themselves up as an 'artisan' roaster (whatever the hell that means!), or a cafe promotes itself as a 3rd wave cafe with expensive machines, well dressed if pretentious staff masquerading as baristas and prices to match, or some self appointed expert claims to have a mortgage on best practice, doesnt mean that they roast or pour better than the keen amateur.

Its one of the marvels of the modern age that keen amateurs are capabable of truly great outcomes in so many fields that were the province of professional specialists historically. Aside from nuclear fusion there are not many things that cant be done, and done very well, at home.

I am sorry, but I continue to reject the implication apparent within this thread, that somehow home roasting is by necessity an inferior process resulting in an inferior product.

Finally, its so damn cheap to give it a try, why try to discourage people? At the end of the day its up to the individual to decide whether the coffee they roast is capable of producing the coffee they enjoy in the cup.

galumay wrote:That does rather beg the question, what are the best coffees, best roasters and best practice? Just because ... a cafe promotes itself as a 3rd wave ... or some self appointed expert claims to have a mortgage on best practice, doesnt mean that they roast or pour better than the keen amateur.

A panel of ten or so accredited cupping experts judge at a green coffee auction. The buyers, based on their own cupping and the experts ratings, bid on these coffees, offering to pay 5 to 50 times the rate of normal specialty coffee.

The buyers are an expanding group, currently about 200 world wide, of boutique importers and 3rd wave cafes. They roast these very expensive coffees and successfully sell them. Coffee lovers pay large premiums to drink thee coffees. Some of these coffees and roasts find their way to barista competitons, where the coffees and the shots makers are again rated by panels of accredited judges. These baristas are sought after ad work at the best cafes.

But according to you, all these people are "self appointed" frauds. On the other hand, a home roaster burning some buck a pound leavings shoveled up from a Sumatran roadside, has the special charismatic inspiration of amateurdom, and so outdoes all this expense, effort, and collective knowledge.

This is flat out nonsense.

There are "keen home roasters" who produce world class roasts. I taste several each year. But guess what. They are buying the auction coffees, listening to the self appointed experts, and drinking at self promotong third wave cafes. That's what being "a keen roaster" means.

another_jim wrote:This is flat out nonsense.

Thats a flat out strawman argument and someone of your standing should know better than to try an old card trick like that to support a position.

Jim does well to lay out the social-construction of "expert." The keys here are panels, buyers, accreditation----in other words, acceptance into an elite community of coffee practitioners. These experts don't merely judge current works, they shape trends, they multiply their influence by persuading other experts, and (one hopes) they defy or shift the "common" sense.

By referring to most of our roasting practices as a "hobby," Jim seems to be placing us outside that elite community of experts. I entirely agree----for myself, of course, but also for nearly all of the rest who participate here. I think it's a useful distinction. Further, occasionally selling some of our product, or even operating a cafe, does not guarantee admission to the expert community.

The challenge for us coffee mortals is to align our own practices and tastes with expert sensibilities. When there's a mismatch ("I hate this coffee") the first step is to make sure I prepared it correctly; second step is to change or expand my taste (discover what I'm missing or shocked by); the third step is to assert my disagreement and if necessary, write off that expert source while searching for others.

As with all things coffee and espresso, you have to discover what you like, and then you have to find a way to get it. Both parts of the equation are difficult and time consuming to achieve.

When I started with this little hobby, there was a lot less information out there, and none of the popular coffee forums existed yet; all we had online was alt.coffee, which at least in that era was somewhat useful, although it presented what in retrospect is an overly simple and predictable view of coffee.

Nowadays we are deluged with information, some of which is true, some of which is false, and some of which is opinion presented as if it were fact, in some cases by self-appointed and self-important "experts" who think they have a monopoly when it comes to separating the wheat from the chaff. I'm not sure whether the current reality vs. the old "limited information, alt.coffee type reality" is better, but the learning curve is potentially greatly shortened now to those willing to put in some effort and test things out for themselves.

My own home-roasting journey started out with low end home roasting devices and later moved on first to a 1lb commercial sample drum roaster and more recently to a 1kg. Diedrich IR-1. Although I am probably one of the few who has actually amortized the cost of home roasting and actually saved money at least before I bought the Diedrich, cost saving is probably not a rational reason to home roast for most home roasters. What I have accomplished however is that I now have a fairly well-defined taste for espresso, and I know that none of the well-known commercial roasters is roasting coffees I like to my own taste preferences, so if I want to drink what I like, I literally have to roast it myself.

I do not believe for an instant that good green beans are limited to a small number of highly sought-after auction lots that one must pay a fortune for. Although there are a lot of indifferent and truly bad beans out there, a little care as a consumer should have you steering clear of those except on very rare occasions. Skill as a home roaster will develop over time if one has reasonable quality equipment and exercises care over the process, avoiding equipment that won't allow the process to be controlled. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor will you become a competent home roaster quickly, but if you stick with it and seek out feedback along the way, your roast product will improve and in the end you can satisfy the only taste that really matters anyway, e.g. yours.

ken

galumay wrote:Thats a flat out strawman argument.

No it isn't. I taste dozens of home roasts and dozens of start up micro roasters' wares each year. What is the best predictor of good roasts and good coffee selection versus bad? Familiarity with the top coffees and top roasters. This "top' label may be socially constructed, but people who know it produce better roasts and select better coffees than those who do not. Quite simply, there is actual good coffee and good roasting beneath all the constructions and proclamations.

This leads to Ken's point. There are indeed lots of great cheap coffees out there; but finding them usually means you know what the best coffees taste like. There is only one way way to do this -- to regularly taste the coffees the most passionate and expert coffee people regard as the best.

This is why the people attending auctions and all the rest of the top flight coffee world are better at locating good cheap coffees. They are familiar where the good coffees are coming from each year, and they know the taste when they get it. The further away you get form this world, the sparser the good coffees, cheap or dear, become.

Home roasting actually helps gain expertise. But only if you do the same things pro roasters do, try lots of coffees, sample roast and cup.

Ken Fox wrote: cost saving is probably not a rational reason to home roast for most home roasters. What I have accomplished however is that I now have a fairly well-defined taste for espresso, and I know that none of the well-known commercial roasters roasting coffees I like to my own taste preferences, so if I want to drink what I like, I literally have to roast it myself.ken

On average, the well-known commercial roasters do a better job than I do. However, it's frustrating not to have recourse when I start wondering about profile modifications on a roast or not to be able to try a particular S0 because, in all fairness, there are "better" commercial choices for roasters' limited offerings. To this, I'd add that baristas at my many local premium cafes are on average more skilled than I. Unfortunately, they refuse to show up at my apartment at 6:30 am.

Next, cost saving is a pleasing factor that belongs on a much longer list when making the "case" for roasting. It becomes irrational (for most) when savings are raised to the driving reason for roasting: ex., I roast because I could not otherwise afford the highest coffee experience.

another_jim wrote:Home roasting actually helps gain expertise. But only if you do the same things pro roasters do, try lots of coffees, sample roast and cup.

The straw man fallacy is probably unavoidable. That engaging "Hermit Roaster" conjures an image of a Rousseau-ian isolate who also hopes to be taken seriously in the marketplace of coffee deliberations. Such a person deserves to be bricked up in his cave, though I don't really notice them too much. I try lots of coffees: every roast is a sample roast; and I do not cup (apart from drinking most of my shots.) My learning curve is slow but I expect to live a long time. I try not to dispute, on substantive coffee matters, the handful or two of experts I am able to identify.

I've decided to dive in; ordered a Hottop B; ordered beans from Sweet Maria's.

Hell yeah man - congrats!

Better load up on some greens:-D

cheers,
~j

I've been watching this thread develop with some amusement, then found that I started talking to myself in response. Here goes...

I throw verbal darts at another_jim for the simple fact that he has expressed several thoughts regarding home roasting that I have formed on my own; he just does it a few years sooner and much more succinctly than I would. Case in point, home roasting is like cooking.

You can cook at home for cheap. Hell, microwave oatmeal is cheap and filling. Might even make something edible the first few times, but you sure as hell won't make anything remotely resembling Michelin star-quality food without putting in the time to learn about the raw ingredients, technique and your equipment.

The state of greens availability to consumers is like having access to seriously good, high-end meat and produce, but for 1/3 the cost. It's like getting UDSA Prime steak at less than Choice prices. Artisan roasters are getting this great raw material and putting out seriously good roasts. This is Michelin star-worthy cuisine here, folks. If you put the time in, you can do it too.

I cook a lot and enjoy it. I explore new recipes, new techniques, new flavors and wear a big fat smile on my face the whole time. Never do I delude myself into thinking that all of my exploration is saving money. HOWEVER, the experience and training that I have gained through years of burnt mistakes, under- or overcooked messes and horrendously clashing flavor and texture combinations enables me to shop frugally, buying cheap cuts of meat, fresh produce and grains, and make a tasty, nutritious and cost-effective meal IF I SO DESIRE. I can also take it 180°, splurge on high end ingredients and make a kick-ass 6, 8 or 10 course tasting menu with my pots, pans, stove and oven that will leave the kitchen looking like a hurricane tore through it. I also go out to eat. Dingy-looking Vietnamese joints that have amazing pho, smoky bbq storefronts with bulletproof glass (and the best rib tips in the city), molecular-gastronomy fine dining, great cocktails at hushed-voice speakeasies; I calibrate my palate.

I could have spent all of this time working in my chosen field and making a lot more money, but it would not have the same effect on my life; I would not experience that same thrill of accomplishment, that same dejection of failure, that burning desire to do. it. again. better, next time.. But it's not cheap. I believe that the correct term is opportunity cost. What is my time worth, and how do I value it?

What is your goal?
If your goal is cost-effectiveness, by all means you COULD home roast and it'll be cheaper. Will your home roasts taste as good as the pros, and as often? I highly doubt it. You could buy some brown rice, tofu and fresh vegetables and try to cook it without any training, without reading, and without trying a decent stir-fry at the local Asian joint, but it won't taste the same. It'll barely be close. You'll be lucky if you can make the rice without burning it or turning it into a gloppy mess, but it'll sure be cheaper per serving and if you don't know what the real thing tastes like, you might think it's pretty good. Well, heads up. You ain't no Ming Tsai. Or Ken Hom. Or even Martin Yan (dude's got chops, regardless of how cheesy his PBS shows might appear). Chen Kenichi wouldn't blow his nose at you.

If your goal is to explore and produce great coffee and really dive off the deep end, by all means you SHOULD home roast. It won't be cheap because you'll burn through a LOT of coffee as you learn the process, become familiar with your equipment, and spend an inordinate amount of time buried in learning about different coffee varietals, processing methods, shipping and storage methods and how ALL OF THESE THINGS play into your roasting decisions. As you internalize these lessons, your roasts will start to taste better, and consistently so. You'll learn how to recognize different roast faults and more importantly, how to avoid them. You'll learn how to compensate for different moisture levels in different beans, how to account for beans grown at different altitudes. You'll learn. This is what the pros do. Day in, day out. This is the level of coffee knowledge that a roaster, home or professional, develops by virtue of pursuing their passion.

I home roast to pursue my passion for coffee. I want to learn. I want to know more, do more, taste more. I want to taste what the pros are roasting, buy it green and test it against my own. I've done it with George Howell's Daterra Northern Italian. That is to say, I've tried and come close, but not been able to exactly hit the mark that they do. I've done it with Metropolis' Redline (aka "Greenline").

It pisses me off that I didn't do better in this year's home roasting competition. I want to do it again next year, and place higher. Jammin - you stated that your experience was quite the opposite and that you got really good results fairly quickly. More power to you. Glad that you found something that works and tastes great. I hope you participate in next year's competition, and I hope to beat you. I hope to place above Kupe, chang00, ecc, farmroast and Rama. I've tasted these guys' roasts. They're damn good. I want to be better.

Every time I finish roasting a batch, I learn something new. I look forward to how it's going to taste in the cup. That's a great feeling. That's my case for home roasting. Do it for the passion. Don't do it for the pocketbook.