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Best roaster route for $1k

Postby Fr. John on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:08 am

OK, We go through about 1-1.5 lbs/week. My hands down favorite is Black Cat.........can't afford BC, especially after shipping.

I keep going back to home roasting. I've never tried it but I just can't see an alternative. The local roasters here charge a lot less than most of the better mail order roasters but they are also FAR inferior. I actually talked one of the local shops into selling me 2-3 lbs. at a time for $75.0/lb. Great deal.........bad coffee.

What's the reality of spending in the neighborhood of $1k on a roaster and getting Black Cat results (or just dang good results)?

I am not interested in this as a hobby, my real impetus is economy and quality.
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Postby allon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:14 am

It is possible to get fantastic results from home roasting, but you have to learn. If you only want to save money without being an amateur (look up the meaning of the word) roaster, you will be unsatisfied and will fail to produce decent results.

Roasting is a journey; you need to start somewhere, but don't expect to start at the top.
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Postby Fr. John on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:22 am

I should have been clearer:

I didn;t say anything about not wanting to learn. I suppose it may have come acrros that way.

What I wanted to convey is that some people do these things as a hobby, which is fine. I don't want to approach it that way. I have enough distraction. What I meant was that I want to get right to it and get it over with. Doesn't imply I want to do it half hearted.

It's kind of like making your own sausage: 100 years ago it was common........didn't mean though that everyone who did it well enjoyed it or used it as a pastime. Sometimes necessity really is the mother of invention.
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Postby harris on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:30 am

Factor in the time spent learning, the bad roasts and shipping of greens . . . invest in a freezer and make a Black Cat run. It will save you time and money. The economics of home roasting just aren't there, you won't get your $1000 back in this lifetime.
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Postby germantown rob on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:12 am

Fr. John wrote:OK, We go through about 1-1.5 lbs/week. My hands down favorite is Black Cat.........can't afford BC, especially after shipping.

I keep going back to home roasting. I've never tried it but I just can't see an alternative. The local roasters here charge a lot less than most of the better mail order roasters but they are also FAR inferior. I actually talked one of the local shops into selling me 2-3 lbs. at a time for $75.0/lb. Great deal.........bad coffee.

What's the reality of spending in the neighborhood of $1k on a roaster and getting Black Cat results (or just dang good results)?

I am not interested in this as a hobby, my real impetus is economy and quality.


I am not sure about the prices you wrote for your local roaster, $75 per pound? 2-3lbs for $75? Black Cat is $75 for 5lbs + shipping, RedBird espresso is excellent and $50 for 5lbs shipped. Freezing portions of the beans will save you money and not harm the beans.

Home roasting is not just a recipe like making sausage, it will not take a year or two to perfect making a sausage recipe but it will take that time to make good roasts for espresso. Making roasts come out like artisan roastmasters will take lots of time and practice. I am close after 5 years of 5lbs roasted a week but still have much to learn.

To answer your question the Hottop B and the Quest M3 fit your price range give or take. http://www.sweetmarias.com/sweetmarias/coffee-roasters/drum-roasters/hottop-roaster-basic.html and http://www.coffeeshrub.com/shrub/content/quest

I would consider looking at ways to buy excellent roasted coffee in bulk to save you money, as mentioned home roasting does not really get you coffee cheaper, it does however give you control over beans roasted, degree of roast, and keep you in fresh coffee supply.
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Postby allon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:41 am

The "you can't save money roasting it by yourself" argument is a real fallacy.
It all depends on your journey, how long it takes, and how much it is worth to you.

I started with a $5 popcorn popper, and did okay roasts for a long time (drip). I then bought a $180 iRoast2 and that did okay for a while. I really only flubbed a few roasts. I modified my setup to get greater control. Then I got tired of that and did heat gun roasting for a while; it should be noted that even the "flubbed" roasts turned into learning, so there was value gained there.

Then I found a PID controller for a truly astounding price (thank you mis-listed eBay items!) and pid'ed my iRoast.

Can I do a great espresso? Hell yeah.
Can I do a "meh" espresso? Well, yes too, but I have some basics that get me in the ballpark, and I can tweak. If you don't want to tweak, homeroasting isn't for you. If you want to save money without taking a journey, homeroasting isn't for you.

However if you want to learn everything about coffee, don't mind tweaking and turning, spending a little money here and there, you might end up surprised at how easy it is to turn out coffee that leaves most commercial offerings in the dust. (Am I producing equal to black cat? hell no. I'm nowhere near that good. I can produce better than many local roasters, though).

And you get to roast to YOUR tastes.

Another point is that commercial roasters try to produce a consistent product.
The way I approach it is that I don't strive for consistency -- I strive for consistently good. I mix it up, try all kinds of things, and have seldom been disappointed with the results.
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Postby mikekarr on Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:02 am

I feel like I'm in a similar boat in terms of my view of coffee, and I'm very happy with my Behmor as a means to an end. It doesn't do the very best roasts, but it does very good roasts across the board for me. It doesn't give me full control, but it gives enough control that I'm consistently happy with my roasts week after week. I generally go through 2 pounds a week, two different coffees each session and the occasional sample roast.

Even better, the learning curve is incredibly shallow, no harder than baking a cake. Actually, probably easier than that.
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Postby bean2friends on Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:42 am

I have a 4 pound RK drum with a high speed motor, a dedicated Weber Spirit 310 grill (36000 btu), and a 6.5 hp shop vac - the hose fits in a hole in a Lowes paint bucket. In the bucket I place a mesh waste basket I got at Office Max, drilled holes in the bottom - it fits tightly so I can suck out much of the chaff and cool down the roast pretty quickly. Also, I have a timer I bought at BB&B for about 10 bucks and a digital thermometer I bought for $30 at Sweet Maria's. I roast 2 pounds at a time - I allow about a 1/2 hour per roast - setting up, shutting down, putting away. Actual roast time is only about 15 minutes. There you have it.
Grill - $500.
Motor - 250
Rotisserie - 50
thermometer - 30
Paint bucket - 10
shop vac - 80 (I don't know what they are now - I bought mine for other purposes some time ago - note- I use the shop vac for clean up as well as cooling.
timer - 10
waste basket - 20
total - $950.
enjoyment - priceless

So here's the thing, I do 2 pounds of greens at a time - yield around 14 ounces per pound. I'll do maybe 6 to 8 pounds in a typical session. I think my roasts are as good as most coffees I buy - including Intelligentsia. That may be ignorant of me - it is not arrogance -maybe I just can't tell. What's important is that I can't really tell so I'm happy with my roasts. But, here's the other thing, if I didn't enjoy this process, I would be selling my equipment and buying roasted coffee on line.
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Postby boar_d_laze on Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:33 am

It probably takes forever to become a really accomplished roaster. The kind of guy who cups, and tweaks, cups and tweaks, understands the secret natures of hundreds of varietals, knows... hell I don't know. All that stuff is out of my experience.

What I do know is that if you're interested, observant, focussed, have a good palate, buy an easy machine, are willing to do all of the cleaning and maintenance required, ask lots of stupid questions, and a little lucky in terms of stumbling on appropriate profiles, you should be getting acceptable results after just a few roasts; and very good results after finding a better profile and doing a little tweaking, after around 20 roasts.

As a beginner doing simple blends you'll want to start with a roast strategy that gets you to first crack -- with one slight delay during the drying period -- more or less as quickly as possible; then stretch the period between first and second crack. You do not want to spend too much time anywhere along the line or the beans will taste baked. "Too much" is a relative term -- but you don't want the beans in the drum for longer than... say... 15 minutes, tops.

There are a few machines worth looking at in your price range which will show a beginner a relatively good time: Behmor, Gene, HotTop, HotTop Programmable; and Quest.

Behmor: The Behmor is a good machine, well under your top price; and not only the least expensive (by far) of the good machine, but the price/value leader as well. It's very thoughtfully designed, and the least smokey of the bunch. Smoke is one thing and [ahem] roast-aroma its close relation. If you do indoor roasting under an ordinary hood, this is the roaster which won't stink up your house and get you in trouble with your cell-mates.

Of the machines I listed, the Behmor is the only one which is sold as doing a good job for more than 8oz of beans. In fact, the manufacturer says 1lb. Unfortunately, not so much. Certainly not a good job. Maybe 10oz, but you couldn't tell by me -- I stayed stuck at 8oz. The problem is that larger roasts take more time, the Behmor only produces so much heat, and... train wreck.

It's not really a "batch roaster," but does an okay job of doing a couple of roasts without two much in-between cleaning and waiting. You could do 1.5lbs in one weekly roasting sessions, without stretching the morning out too far. Not true with the HotTops.

For lots of reasons, Behmor roasts tend to be slightly on the duller side of bright -- not just compared to an air roaster but to good shop roasts as well. This is generally true of the machine, but becomes more pronounced as charge size increases, and -- in my experience -- really screams in amounts over 8oz. You may or may not like this quality. At first it didn't bother me at all, then it did slightly, until finally -- when I had to replace mine -- I couldn't get it out of my head.

Behmors are quite sensitive to voltage variation. If yours varies significantly, you'll want to consider some sort of regulation such as a Variac clone.

The Behmor doesn't do a good job of getting chaff out of the heat. That can be a real problem. I won't say it's prone to chaff fires exactly, but the possibility is sure as hell real.

The cooling cycle is not great, and imposes some limitations on the quality of the roast.

Gene: Very easy roaster run to run. Good coffee, but a little on the bright side. Batch roasts without too much delay between charges.

Has cool down issues, similar to the Behmor. Takes around 15minutes to get 8oz to FC. The longer roast -- combined with the slow cool down -- means risking going from bright to baked at a very critical time. The solution is to roast less coffee at a time.

An acquaintance has one, I don't, haven't used his, and am stopping here other than to say his experience was an important part in my decision to buy a HotTop.

HotTop and HotTop Programmable: They're really the same machine with different control boards. The HT is more versatile than the HT-P, slightly more "hands-on" and less expensive, are very easy. The HT-P better rewards understanding and planning, but only slightly. I have an HT-P and love it.

The HTs are very much miniature shop roasters in the way they cook and cool down. Roast quality can be exemplary. In my opinion it doesn't take all that much to get to very, very good, either. True excellence is another thing -- you can ask me abut that in five years.

HTs do not do successive batches easily. They need lots of cool down, and some cleaning beyond as well. Because the drum isn't easily removable -- especially from a hot roaster -- getting all the chaff out requires more effort.

HTs have been around for awhile, are well understood, and you can get quite a bit of good help from the boards. They're also well supported, well made, good looking, fun to use.

Quest: Machine du jour. Over your stated price limit. Best results seem to come from relatively small charges -- less than 200g. I understand the ideal is somewhere around 150g. Roasts quicker and does batches better than anything else, so you may be able to live with that limitation.

Totally manual, which gives you lots of control, and which I gather is not very important to you, because you're a "set it and forget it" kind of guy. The reality is that you don't have to make use of all the control.

The least sensitive to power line variation, because the roaster has complete control over power usage.

I don't own one, but gather from the boards that a lot of people are getting good results from simple profiles like "crank it to the max, heat to 300F and drop, stay cranked untl 1st crack, drop it to 60% until first snaps of second crack, and eject." At a guess, most owners are far from expert roastmasters and are using that sort of simple profile. So you wouldn't be alone.

My guess is that quantity and price push it down to the bottom of your list.

Bottom Line: HotTop or Behmor. Both are simple and friendly.

The Behmor is significantly less expensive, and if that's at all an issue, is the best choice by far. Heck, buy two.

Roasters tend to use more coffee than people who don't roast -- it's partly waste, partly tasting, and partly quien sabe. We go through about the same amount of greens you think you will, roughly a 30% increase over what we did before I started roasting. In our case the amount means roasting a single batch two or three times a week. Asking for greater output from an HT might make the process significantly more onerous. That's not an absolute, it depends on your patience.

If you're the kind of guy who likes to find something that works and stick with it, AND don't mind spending the extra couple of hundred which slightly favors that type of personality, get the HT-P. If you want as much control and improvisatory wriggle-room as possible, get the regular HT. If you don't know, get the regular.

I chose the HT-P over the HT for the wrong reasons, not really understanding the differences. If someone had explained it to me at the time, I probably would have bought the HT... but it turns out the HT-P really suits me. Lucky; but lucky works.

I certainly like the HT-P a great deal more than I did my Behmor. I got better results from the HT from day one, using the "Automatic" program (which you'd outgrow after very few roasts). We like our own roasts more than the biggies, get good results from our own SO choices, my blends, and commercial blends oriented towards home-roasters. Drinking professionally roasted coffee now and then -- including BC -- is a nice change-up.

Not only are we frikkin' thrilled with the coffee we get out it, after nearly a hundred roasts, I still get a kick out of watching the beans drop and the agitator stir them as they cool. Nothing quite like immaturity as a decision basis is there? If I had to do it again, I'd likely buy another HT-P.

BDL
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Postby germantown rob on Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:14 pm

allon wrote:The "you can't save money roasting it by yourself" argument is a real fallacy.
It all depends on your journey, how long it takes, and how much it is worth to you.


Here is some very rough math on costs. $50 for 5lbs shipped of Redbird, excellent espresso. 6lbs of green beans shipped call it $7 shipped (I spend lots more per lb and I spend less but not by much) this comes to $42 for 5lbs of roasted beans a savings of $8, a bigger savings if buying BC. There will be wasted or at least poor roasts done that will not come close to the shots pulled with BC or RB that will be consistent order to order so factor in learning experience that does not taste anywhere as close to artisan roasters and savings gets very small if what counts is in the cup. If 5lbs last 1 month and savings is between $8-50 it would take 2 years to pay off the cost of a Quest M3 at the $50 a month savings and that does not take into account any maintenance or repair costs to the machine. I can pan roast very well and that cost $0 for the equipment but I would never compare those roasts to BC.
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