Behmor or HotTop for Christmas?

by **GC7** on Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:33 pm

I have been a home roaster for nearly 1 year now. I use a Poppery II that has been modified to bypass the thermostat with a thermometer to monitor the bean mass temperature and a variac to control the roast profile as best I can.

I've become pretty good at roasting a large variety of beans and I rely heavily on the thermometer and my senses to get good results that are fairly reproducible. The coffee and more recently the espresso is quite good.

However, I am tired of the small batches and the variability in ambient temperature from season to season (here in New York) requiring me to alter technique. So, I hope that Santa will grant my request for a new drum roaster for Christmas. I want a drum roaster especially now that I have become SERIOUS about espresso and my understanding is that drum roasting may bring out deeper flavor profiles for espresso extractions.

I would greatly appreciate hearing from those here with experience whether to purchase the Behmor or HotTop models. I obviously appreciate that the Behmor can roast up to 1 lb batches but mostly hear that the practical range is 8-12 oz. I appreciate the price is right (LOWER) for the Behmor as well. There is a range of roast profiles but they can't be modified to any large extent as far as I have read beyond extending the roast. What I don't like about the Behmor from my research is that is quite prone to voltage fluctuations yet using a Variac to up the voltage requires care so you don't blow some circuits. Mostly, I hate the fact that there is no monitoring of internal bean mass temperature. You rely on the profile and your senses as far as I can tell. My experience with the popper is that temperature monitoring is more important. Moreover, its not recommended to go much into second crack (I usually don't like dark roasts anyway). Behmor seems to be easy to use and to clean and it has many many fans (especially over on CG).

The HotTop is more than twice the price and can "only" do 9 oz but it seems to be from my reading to be more of a workhorse with a far greater range of roast profiles and possibilities. The auto dump and cool feature is pretty nifty as well. It is reported to produce a roast that is much like the commercial drum roasters and you can go as dark as you wish (watching out for fire of course!). From what I can tell it is internally monitored for voltage (no variac necessary) and less prone to outside temperature fluctuations. Is it easy to clean? It has a long history of reliability and interchangable parts for replacements.

With price being important only in the sense that I want to choose the model that is clearly better (especially espresso beans) I'd appreciate thoughts and recommendations. If they are somewhat equal in roasting abilities, longevity and service I would obviously get the Behmor. If there are obvious benefits to the HotTop I would spend the extra $$$$.

Thanks in advance for your input.

by **JimG** on Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:42 pm

I went through a similar deliberation a few months ago. I bought a Hottop so I could do this. Still happy with my choice.

Jim

by **drdna** on Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:04 pm

If price does not matter, get the Hot Top. I own the Behmor, because for my purposes it is adequate, but it requires some temperature and roast profile surfing. Either one will be a step up though.

by **GC7** on Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:41 pm

Thanks guys - I appreciate the comments and would welcome more opinions.

drdna - Price certainly will make a difference. Have you seen the economic news lately? :cry:

However, I want any extra money I spend to be for a clearly better product that will eliminate upgradeitis for years hopefully. How do you deal with knowing pretty precisely when to end a roast with the Behmor? With my popper, I have a thermometer probe in the beans and its been my best tool to get to just where I want in a roast. I don't see that ability in the Behmor so in very many ways it is an upgrade but I don't want to lose that control. I asked Joe several times on CG if a temperature indicator was in the works but he never bothered to respond. I think folks would pay extra for that as an add on feature.

Jim - Wow! As a golf nut who was into equipment and knows many guys who constantly tinker with clubs your roaster mod wins all contests. Well done and I hope your coffee has improved too! :wink:

by **farmroast** on Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:47 am

I don't have either one, use my homebuilt, but have heard a lot about both of them on various forums. I'd go with the hottop from the criteria you describe.
farm

by **Frost** on Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:13 pm

I can't give you a first hand comparison but I've looked long and hard for my upgrade path from a temperature/variac manually controlled chaff blowing Poppery 1. It would be easy for me to choose the Hottop over the Behmor from the control standpoint alone. Adding a temp probe for bean mass in the Hottop B and you have fairly straight forward profile control. From data I've seen I think it's a bit under-powered (appears the 240V model does quite a bit better here), but this can be overcome mostly with limiting batch size and increasing pre-heat times. If you are wanting to get indoors during the winter months that is another matter for ventilation and the Behmor seems to do better in this regard, but likely ventilation is still required. I've not seen anything on getting bean temps (monitoring or direct control) on the Behmor and Hottop bean cooling is better as well.

Mainly though for me, I can't imagine giving up the direct profile control and monitoring the bean mass temperature to guide the roast. To spend much time experimenting and tasting with this is to realize that it is key to a controlled and repeatable roast. The Behmor is nice for alot of home roasters and brings the process to a kitchen appliance, but for tuning the roast profile for a DP Ethiopian or Guatemala Bourbon, I could not turn the responsibility for profile control to an appliance that runs open loop with respect to bean temperature.

I'm not trying to sell anything and certainly not trying to promote air poppers as the best roaster, but the 'upgrade' path to better quality roast is not obvious to me. I think the Hottop is a solid choice but then I would hack into it for at least a bean temp probe and my ideal drum roaster would also have a knob to control convective heating. Something that was left out of the Hottop design.

by **prof_stack** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:44 am

GC7 wrote:I have been a home roaster for nearly 1 year now. I use a Poppery II that has been modified to bypass the thermostat with a thermometer to monitor the bean mass temperature and a variac to control the roast profile as best I can.

I've become pretty good at roasting a large variety of beans and I rely heavily on the thermometer and my senses to get good results that are fairly reproducible. The coffee and more recently the espresso is quite good.
...
I would greatly appreciate hearing from those here with experience whether to purchase the Behmor or HotTop models. I obviously appreciate that the Behmor can roast up to 1 lb batches but mostly hear that the practical range is 8-12 oz. I appreciate the price is right (LOWER) for the Behmor as well. There is a range of roast profiles but they can't be modified to any large extent as far as I have read beyond extending the roast. What I don't like about the Behmor from my research is that is quite prone to voltage fluctuations yet using a Variac to up the voltage requires care so you don't blow some circuits. Mostly, I hate the fact that there is no monitoring of internal bean mass temperature. You rely on the profile and your senses as far as I can tell. My experience with the popper is that temperature monitoring is more important. Moreover, its not recommended to go much into second crack (I usually don't like dark roasts anyway). Behmor seems to be easy to use and to clean and it has many many fans (especially over on CG).

The HotTop is more than twice the price and can "only" do 9 oz but it seems to be from my reading to be more of a workhorse with a far greater range of roast profiles and possibilities. The auto dump and cool feature is pretty nifty as well. It is reported to produce a roast that is much like the commercial drum roasters and you can go as dark as you wish (watching out for fire of course!). From what I can tell it is internally monitored for voltage (no variac necessary) and less prone to outside temperature fluctuations. Is it easy to clean? It has a long history of reliability and interchangable parts for replacements.

With price being important only in the sense that I want to choose the model that is clearly better (especially espresso beans) I'd appreciate thoughts and recommendations. If they are somewhat equal in roasting abilities, longevity and service I would obviously get the Behmor. If there are obvious benefits to the HotTop I would spend the extra $$$$.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Great post! You've stated your experience and intentions very clearly.

Having done lots of air popper batches with temp probe and variac I too learned a lot about roasting. Next step was the 1475W TO/SC system which allowed up to 1# batches with good success. No variac needed. So for 3 years I roasted beans by those methods.

When the Behmor was introduced with the impressive $300 price, I was curious and eventually bought one because I liked the idea of a more "appliance" type roaster all in one compact box. Not quite a "set it and forget it" roaster but less vigilence is needed during the roast. The Hottop was more than twice the price and also Asian manufactured. There were also reports of fires from the HOTtop. But I haven't heard much about that recently. I'm not convinced that the roast quality is significantly better with the Hottop, but your tastebuds might be more refined.

I love the Behmor for its consistency and simplicity. The roasts are great. It's like the difference between driving an automatic transmission vs a manual transmission. A BIG PLUS for Behmor is Joe Behm's hands-on customer service. At this point no home roasting company comes close to that, period. But Joe had to put more safety features into it, including limiting roast times for the 3 weight settings (1/4, 1/2, 1#) and profile types. Once I got the voltage issues sorted, it works as advertised. I typically do 1/2# roasts as that is our weekly consumption right now.

But, based on your post, you'll probably be happier with the Hottop so you can have a more hands-on experience with the roasts. There will be a learning curve with either roaster, but you sound as if you are willing to pay the extra $$$ for the Hottop and the "manual transmission". So I'd say to go for it.

by **Randy G.** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:01 pm

I will be a bit defensive about some Hottop comments:

prof_stack wrote:Great post! You've stated your experience and intentions very clearly....

... There were also reports of fires from the HOTtop. But I haven't heard much about that recently. I'm not convinced that the roast quality is significantly better with the Hottop, but your tastebuds might be more refined.

ANY roasting appliance has the potential for fire. The reports of fire that I have been privy to have involved earlier models, inattentive owners, unattended roasts in progress, or combinations of those factors. The current models (KN-8828P and KN-8828B) both feature safety programming that requires the roaster to be attended as well as necessitating the removal of the chaff tray for each roast before the next roast can be started.

Do you have a Hottop to enable you to compare? Have you done enough roasts in the Hottop to get the best from any one coffee to be able to compare the two?

A BIG PLUS for Behmor is Joe Behm's hands-on customer service. At this point no home roasting company comes close to that, period.

I have spoken to Joe face-to-face twice as well as sending him a few E-Mails stating my interest in reviewing his roaster, and while he did the salesman's job of describing the operation and design of the roaster, it never went any further than that. He told me at our first meeting that the first batch being imported was spoken for, and that he would contact me later on, it never went any further. Not the best service that I have experienced. Beyond that, if you have never dealt with Hottop customer service then it is unfair to state one is better than the other.

DISCLAIMER: I am an independent contractor who does work for Hottop but I do not make any money on sales of the roasters nor am I paid for my website's reviews.

by **Frost** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:37 pm

I want to clarify a couple points about what makes a 'better' roaster or roast, and I think the analogy between automatic and manual transmission is not quite appropriate here. The auto vs. manual would seem to imply that either way you get from point A to B... (....you end up with roasted beans) but really you don't always(ever?) end up at the same place when roasting. If you run the ramp to first crack at 20F/min or 35F/min, you will absolutely get a different result. One might be better for one bean or another. The roaster (machine) that allows you(the roaster) to make that choice is the better roaster. The better roaster (person doing the roasting) is the one who knows when to apply the heat and to what degree to achiieve the desired result. The 'learning curve' with a roaster (machine) is about learning how a roaster behaves, capabilities and limitations, but learning to be a good roaster(person) is about learning to taste and knowing how to adjust the roast parameters to achieve the desired results (within the limits of the bean and the machine). A machine with better flexibility, stability, monitoring and control, repeatability, will allow the roaster to make a better roast.
...hmmm maybe 'clarify' was not the best word to use....

by **prof_stack** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:36 pm

Frost wrote:A machine with better flexibility, stability, monitoring and control, repeatability, will allow the roaster to make a better roast.

There's a thread full of content from this statement!

I suppose you could add to it the option of using a 220V model and how that would affect the roast quality.

Which leads to a bigger question: Can any home roaster machine consistently duplicate the quality of a commercial machine? Can the home roaster person coax the quality out of the bean using one of the better home roasters (Behmor, Gene, Hottop)?

by **GC7** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:05 pm

This is the kind of input I was hoping to receive. I again thank everyone for their contributions.

I have not fully made up my mind as yet but I am closer and much more informed then I was. When I purchased my espresso machine I read a whole lot especially from the archives here on HB but I still do not think I knew what I was getting into with an HX machine except that I was confident that it could make exceptional espresso. I had never made an espresso myself before the purchase. I did not appreciate that an HX involved so much user input to tinker for good temperature control and profile. In the end I am happy that I can control this and with practice (and Eric's thermometer probe) and compulsive routine and dosing my drinks are getting really really good and consistently so. My long winded point in mentioning this is that I want to do a bit more homework this time. I am already much more prepared having roasted with the popper for nearly a year.

Frost - your post of 3:37 PM was a classic and I thank you very much. I think you summarize the task at hand perfectly and I will keep your wisdom in mind when I make up my mind.

by **Frost** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:21 pm

prof_stack wrote: ....................
Which leads to a bigger question: Can any home roaster machine consistently duplicate the quality of a commercial machine? Can the home roaster person coax the quality out of the bean using one of the better home roasters (Behmor, Gene, Hottop)?

Since I have never tasted the roast nor used any of the mentioned home roasters, I'm not able to make a judgement on that question. ...And you left out the one home roaster I have extensive experience with: my lowly variac controlled poppery 1. If you have spent much time with home roasting and sampling the best of commercial roasters, you must have informed your own opinion about this. Out of the box all these roasters need work (none have a bean temp probe for one). Besides equipment, odds against the home roaster are experience. How many home roasters take their job (er hobby) serious enough to work with a new lot, carefully test various profiles and cup to determine the best way to roast it? I think most home roasters are far more casual in approach, jumping from one bean to another, and not taking the time to really get one nailed down perfectly. I roast about 3-5 batches a week. Some 'experimental' to dial in a bean, most a 'standard' profile. A pro roaster will likely get more 'experience' in a days work than I would in over a month. One thing we home roasters have going for us is access to some of the best beans available. I don't think you can use green quality as an excuse for lower quality home roast. Many commercial roasters use lesser quality green beans. But the bottom line answer to your question for me is YES, in spite of the odds, if I can do it with my lowly Poppery 1 (and just about anything is an 'upgrade' from it....right?) than just maybe it is possible for all these machines to do as well, given the nessesary modifications.... To 'duplicate' the results may be nearly impossible or unrealistic. If you gave the same greens to 2 different pro roasters you would likely get 2 different interpretations of the bean as well. But to get the full potential, a balanced excellent roast from a prime green bean: absolutely! Don't expect it will be easy though.

by **prof_stack** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:38 pm

You're correct about the Poppery I. I used that for awhile before assembling the SC/TO which made the P1 not nearly as useful. But it did a nice job and taught me a lot about the hobby, as did the SC/TO.

But the really big questions are: Are you happy with your roasts? Do you worry that they might not be as good as someone else's roast?

Even my first roasts in a non-modded Poppery II were great. Freshness of roast was key. Still is. Some of the HB'ers talk as if there is one path to roasting nirvana. Nah, there are lots of different but great flavors. Lots to spread around. I think the HB folk nitpick too much at times. That's why I usually inhabit CG.

But it's nice to come back once in a while and check stuff out.

by **Frost** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:50 pm

...I thought I carefully worded my response to cover those questions already. Have you sampled much from the premium roasters out there? Paradise, Intelligentsia, PT, Barefoot, Stumptown, etc? I admit I don't do it as much as I should. So what do YOU think?

by **GC7** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:03 pm

prof_stack wrote:But the really big questions are: Are you happy with your roasts? Do you worry that they might not be as good as anothers roast?

I think the HB folk nitpick too much at times. That's why I usually inhabit CG.

But it's nice to come back once in a while and check stuff out.

I am happy with my roasts and I don't care how they stack up against others. My coffee has never been better. But I do like this whole process as a hobby and I want to do the best I can for my tastes as well as my wife and guests. I pose my question because I'd like to get to the next level (if there is one for home enthusiasts) and I'm tired of small batches.

Funny but I have the opposite views as you with regard to the forums. As a scientist I appreciate the chemistry involved in roasting and brewing/extracting the coffee we all enjoy. I like very much that engineers contribute here and even artists and musicians seem to have a quantitative and analytical approach to getting good espresso. Attention to details I think can make all the difference between bad, good and great espresso. Finally, I totally love the archives of extremely informative threads and posts that are easy to find and use as reference material. This place is almost unique in that regard IMHO. So, while I like CG as well this is the place I go to for comprehensive substance with regard to coffee.

by HB on Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:58 pm

prof_stack wrote:But the really big questions are: Are you happy with your roasts? Do you worry that they might not be as good as someone else's roast?

Those who want to learn should never be [entirely] happy with their results.

It is by comparing my results with barista competitors that I learned where I fell on the scale of 0...6 (see What does your typical espresso rate? for details). I've spent the ensuing years trying to close that gap even though I was "happy" with my results at any point along the way.

On a related note, Jim started Rate My Roast for those who wish to hear honest critiques and suggestions for improvement. Initial enthusiasm for the idea has waned, but I still hope that it will catch on.

by **miKe mcKoffee** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:15 am

Once having good roast profile control would never be satisfied without. Roasted with dual variac controlled split wired Rosto for about 5 years after a year or so unmodified. Then got a Behmor and shortly after a CCR HotTop. Never got roasts from the Behmor as good as controlled profiled Rosto roasts. In fairness only spent about a month with the Behmor before getting the CCR HT. Once using the CCR HT with it's excellent control never turned on the Behmor again. OTOH the CCR HotTop produces excellent roasts, especially for espresso. The past year roasting primarily on USRC 3k. The HT comes close to the USRC roast quality.

I was happy with my Rosto roasts the last couple years roasting that method. Compared favorably to top commercial roasts. Sometimes maybe even as good. I may even at times be satisfied with results yet am never done attempting to improve. I don't worry about other people's roasts, only worry about constantly improving mine.

by **miKe mcKoffee** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:39 am

prof_stack wrote: I think the HB folk nitpick too much at times. That's why I usually inhabit CG.

OTOH I find CG overall kind of like Grade School level maybe High School, while HB more like College and Post Graduate.

by **Randy G.** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:21 pm

prof_stack wrote:Even my first roasts in a non-modded Poppery II were great. Freshness of roast was key. Still is. Some of the HB'ers talk as if there is one path to roasting nirvana. Nah, there are lots of different but great flavors. Lots to spread around. I think the HB folk nitpick too much at times. That's why I usually inhabit CG. But it's nice to come back once in a while and check stuff out.

Unmodded-Poppery roasting creates a very bright, under-developed roast, so if the coffee you produced with that roasting method was "great," then it is only so in relation to the quality of the coffee to which it is compared. If that is what you like, then that is fine, but there is more flavor in the beans when they are roasted "properly."

If the folks opinions and posts here "nit-pick too much at times" it could just be a matter of them setting higher standards when it comes to coffee than those which you have chosen. I could just as easily state that our standards are not too high.. yours are too low. Everything is relative when it comes to coffee. If you choose not to strive for better coffee, don't put down those who do.

Many advances in the world of coffee have been pushed forward by the nit-pickers, some of whom participate on this forum. PIDs which now appear on many espresso machines were pushed to the forefront by Andy and Greg and other participants on alt.coffee as evidenced by the following posts (tinyurl links to alt.coffee posts archived on Google Groups):

Andy S.
Feb 4 2001, 12:43 am
http://tinyurl.com/78eos

Temperature study of my Silvia (looong)
Greg S.
Feb 5 2001, 12:50 pm
http://tinyurl.com/awhtp

Proportional Temperature Control for Silvia
Greg S.
Mar 5 2001, 6:32 am
http://tinyurl.com/7m43d

I was at least partially responsible for advances in the Hottop roasters to give users the ability to manually control the roasting process and get a shorter and improved roast when compared to the original models.

It is the nitpickers who pick out the nits so you don't have to.

by **prof_stack** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:16 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:OTOH I find CG overall kind of like Grade School level maybe High School, while HB is more like College and Post Graduate.

Cute, very cute. Funny, too! With an occasional helping of hubris.

Randy wrote:If the folks opinions and posts here "nit-pick too much at times" it could just be a matter of them setting higher standards when it comes to coffee than those which you have chosen.

Actually, you guys are right on with going after better roasting techniques and getting a better bean. Whether they are higher standards or just different preferences is debatable, but I purposely got off the HB roasting train last year when I eagerly bought the Behmor for its ease of roasting and the incredible price. After a year of using it, I've got a good handle on how to get what I want from each type of bean or blend. If and when I want to ramp up the hobby I'll probably look into a small sample roaster.

Nit-picking or careful discernment of roast quality and methods, I'm cool with your criticism.

Back to the original poster's question: Get the Hottop if you want more control over the roasting process.


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