IMAWriter wrote:I beta tested the Behmor over 7 months...in fact, I'm STILL testing it!
As far as the comment about "complex products"...the whole point of the Behmor, I believe, is that it can be as SIMPLE, or as complex as you choose..

I'm not going to respond to your post, since Dan accuses me sometimes of having "lastworditis" in threads and I don't want to give him the satisfaction

My only comment is that I really do not appreciate having posts personalized and directed at myself, with references to how I might feel about this or that thing that I own, or whatever some may think of my personal circumstances. This sort of stuff is out of bounds, and should remain so.

ken

Please excuse this moderator-ly interruption...

HAL9000 wrote:Get over the Behmor brother! Or at least buy one and try it out and tell us about it, since you are so rich and whatever.

IMAWriter wrote:When i communicate with my friends here, I WILL NOT CURB MY ENTHUSIASM. That's why we have moderators.

Ken Fox wrote:My only comment is that I really do not appreciate having posts personalized and directed at myself...

Long-time members may have noticed that I don't like the term moderators. Frequently it means "forum police." I've done my fair share of that duty and I can assure you, it's tedious, thankless work few would volunteer for. That's why on this site, each forum instead lists a "lead barista" who facilitates discussions as the leader of an espresso lab would.

It would be a waste of their time and talents to burden them with policing adherence to a list of forum rules, so instead we rely on members (implicitly) agreeing to the site's Guidelines for productive discussion. It explains what is expected of forum participants and includes basic common sense guidelines like Be respectful. If you have any doubts about whether your comments are appropriate, refer to these guidelines. If it is still unclear, contact me offline.

Thank you.

IMAWriter wrote:I had a handle on the Behmor after 4 or 5 roasts. Not a perfect grip, but a confident grasp.

I stand by my guideline that people (and I'm referring to home baristas who typically use a machine only daily or even less often, rather than professionals who use a machine dozens of times per day) should wait three months before posting reviews of complex equipment. But let me elaborate (you can't stop me! ).

To me, a review should say more than "it works, and here's how to use it". Reviews ought to help a prospective buyer understand the machine's shortcomings and the petty annoyances of using it day after day. We all know the difference between the enthusiasm we initially felt for a new piece of gear, and our less dreamy assessment of its day-to-day performance after a year of ownership. I'd say three months of use is the minimum required to begin understanding the factors that take us out of the honeymoon phase and into the more balanced assessment that comes with deeper appreciation of both its strengths and weaknesses.

To elaborate on my previous comment, I don't consider most of the posts here about the Behmor as premature "reviews". They're more like running commentaries during the introductory phase with a new machine, and I appreciate having the chance to read them.

Rick

I haven't seen any reviews yet either. I have seen what you describe, initial impressions after a day or so of use. That they seem so enthusiastic is a good sign that it has hit some sweet spot for some of us. Of course, we won't know how that will all translate into the longer use period.

While I read of all the things people are doing to stretch this or that, or what outside control they are doing, and I am curious about those things too. I'm doing my testing from the point of view of what it does without all of that. IOW, using the controls as designed and leaving the door shut until it quits. And that is because I think that both sides of the roasting public needs to be addressed.

The inveterate tinkerer, the demanding roaster and the casual roaster who just wants a better, but not perfect, cup of coffee. The question to me, is the Behmor going to address all those types? Right now I'd say the casual roaster can give a qualified yes, the qualification being not enough time to know for sure. The other two? I think the jury is still firmly out for them, but there is a lot of info out there to indicate that it just might be for them too.

I'll keep reading here and other places, and posting too, because this seems to be a very nice product that has hit a very nice, if early, mark in coffee roasting.

Java Man wrote:I stand by my guideline that people (and I'm referring to home baristas who typically use a machine only daily or even less often, rather than professionals who use a machine dozens of times per day) should wait three months before posting reviews of complex equipment. But let me elaborate (you can't stop me! ).

To me, a review should say more than "it works, and here's how to use it". Reviews ought to help a prospective buyer understand the machine's shortcomings and the petty annoyances of using it day after day. We all know the difference between the enthusiasm we initially felt for a new piece of gear, and our less dreamy assessment of its day-to-day performance after a year of ownership. I'd say three months of use is the minimum required to begin understanding the factors that take us out of the honeymoon phase and into the more balanced assessment that comes with deeper appreciation of both its strengths and weaknesses.

To elaborate on my previous comment, I don't consider most of the posts here about the Behmor as premature "reviews". They're more like running commentaries during the introductory phase with a new machine, and I appreciate having the chance to read them.

Rick

I agree totally, Rick. In fact, I posted several times on CG my desire that fols not post espresso machine reviews for at least 3 months...6 is better, as the learning curve, as you know does take time.
As you said, these (mine included) are running commentaries.....not reviews.
As I mentioned, I've had by now over 7 months with this roaster. I'm pretty secure with it's performance, and the +'s and -'s of same. Hopefully, I've been balanced and most of all, level headed.

I wonder if it's not time to start a new thread on the Behmor. I'm afraid that this one is full of a lot of commentary, particularly in the last few pages, that wouldn't be helpful to a Behmor owner looking for information/advice.

Nonetheless, I'll keep it going for now, since I have a question about roasting Brazilians in the Behmor (Brazilian coffee that is ). What profile do you use?

IMAWriter wrote:I'm using P1 for most of SO's other than my Brazilians.

stevendouglas wrote:Nonetheless, I'll keep it going for now, since I have a question about roasting Brazilians in the Behmor (Brazilian coffee that is ). What profile do you use?

I have run several batches of the Brasil Morenhina Formosa (sp?) on the Behmor with several different combinations of load/profile/times/roast levels but I am not ready to post my impressions because the last couple of iterations are just now "ready" and I need a few days to taste them as espresso and as drip.

So, sometime next week I'll probably make a post or two at CoffeeGeek (in the Behmor profiles thread) on the subject of roasting Brasilian beans with the Behmor.....in the meantime I'll just indicate that of the roasts I've tasted so far I have generally liked the beans roasted with the more gentle P3 profile.

When I roast with P3, I like to subtract time before the start and add it back at the end. For example, the last batch I did was 12 ounces on P3*1 lb subtracted to 12:00 starting time and then adding 6 minutes after initiating the roast. This ended up with C1 starting at 11-12 minutes (IIRC) and C2 snippits at 16+ minutes, hitting "cool" just as C2 starts to build and opening the door about 20-30 seconds after to get a quick cooldown.

Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

JonR10 wrote:Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Generally speaking (and I sort of posted this at CG), P3 probably wouldn't hurt a soft bean like Brazil that doesn't have any real acidity to miss, especially taken that deep where the roast flavor is going to dominate. So, no attack here, and I think that taste is valid if that is what you prefer.

For what it is worth though....

I did two roast of SM's Classic Italian (what can I say? Sometimes I'm too lazy to blend...), one using P3, and one using P2. Both to light Vienna (rolling 2nd before the cooling stops the roast fully). The P3 was first, and tasted fine. The P2 was a couple weeks later, and was also good, but had some really nice balancing notes of acidity that woke up the palate just a hint. Not bright by any means, but a few other notes in the scale.

I think it will come down to personal taste, but I definitely recommend trying P2 for espressos. I've done both P3 and P2, and P2 won by a long shot to my taste (even if P3 is labeled as for espresso blends in some info). Tom at SM's also likes P2 for Brazils according to his page.

What I do think is a "crime" is to take a nice Central or African, and put it through P3, P4 or P5 like I have seen a few people do. Those beans to me are still like steaks - get the grill hot, roast them quickly to what you want, and cool as quickly as you can. No sense driving off those nice subtle flavors and acidity in my opinion.

I saw Dan and the CCC crew this morning. Within a week or two we'll do a blind cupping of a bean we'll select from the CCC stocks. There are too many variables with espresso prep, so we are going to do normal cupping. We'll do the CCC roast, plus all five profiles of the Behmor taken to the same final level as the CCC. Probably do something like 3 days of rest. I'd throw in my modified popper too, but it is too cold outside for that machine. Chances are we'll do an African with a lot of flavor so that we can clearly identify the effects of the profiles. The results should be interesting!

JonR10 wrote:Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Why harsh impressions?....as much as I enjoy reading and occasionally posting here, no one on this web site that I know of has a pipeline to the Almighty...agree or disagree, the minute someone puts themselves over another based on such a subjective criteria as taste preference?....I'd just remind them that this is a forum where all should be treated with respect...Jon, courteous and respectful as you have been here and on CG, only a cretin not worthy of your response would react in a harsh manner...so, FEAR NOT, my friend...enjoy your mellowed out espresso choco-latte....lol
Have you tried roasting your Liquid Gold blend?....I forgot the formula...I've roasted 20lbs of Redline...mostly with the optional basket...I've had one for 4 months....it is a MUST for smaller beans...Misty valley, Harar, Yemen, peaberry, etc.
I'll be roasting Bella Vita next week.
In answer to the P2/P3 thing....P2 seems to work best for espresso blends, as long the somewhat subdued 1st crack doesn't scare you!
I actually open the door for 2 seconds when 1st is over, to stretch...for some reason, 2nd can sneak up on you in the P2 profile...
I use P1 for Guats, Costa Rica, El Salvador, etc
later!

I guess I'm the only one playing around with P4, or at least one of the few.

I've used it with SM's Classic Italian

1/2# load
Settings: 1/2#, P4, D, 6 +'s

Came up with a nice light show and a very nice dark Vienna. Delicious.

I could have used 4 +'s I think, and since it was an early roast, I didn't log it well. But the results were sure good.

I also did another P4 roasting :

SM's Kenya AA Nyeri - 1/2# load

Settings : 1/2#, P4, D
Stopped the roast with 2:00 left and let the roaster do the cooling.

Results : very nice City roast, very nuanced cup as I expected.

I think P4 is going to turn out to be one of my favorite profiles, although I'm still testing.