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Is flavor dependent on rate of change?

Postby Arpi on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:36 am

Hi.

Probably, everybody agrees that some chemical changes appear only at specific temperature regions. However, do you think that the rate of change (speed) of BT, when going through a region, affects the chemical reactions, creating different flavors? Do you think that some flavors are exclusively dependent on the rate of change? For example, some flavors could only appear when racing steadily (same rate of change) through the mid and finish phase.

The opposite theory would be that the rate of change would only affect the time when passing through a temperature. That is, a faster rate would expose BT to a shorter period during a temperature region but without playing a role in the chemical reaction.

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Postby allon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:54 am

Probably.
Hence my idea to have a log of %heat applied. Then one could use a relatively flat profile and build a "bean map", of sorts, showing where the bean is sucking up the heat and where it isn't. My theory is that each bean has it's own "natural profile". By watching this profile, one could control the heat applied to follow it, then modify that tailored profile to stretch out various points and/or shorten others. of course, in doing so you may change the landscape, so it's kind of like aligning a receiver - make one adjustment, and you wreck another adjustment point...

As far as rate of change having an effect, yes, I think it does. I think some flavors can be missed if one races through a region, or destroyed if developed, but then the roast is taken too far.
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Postby another_jim on Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:58 pm

A simple chemical reaction is only affected by the available energy and feedstocks, so rate of change per se is not a factor. The Maillard reaction is a cascade with chemicals being produced that are required by the next stage, or which compete for feedstock with other reactions. Even the most sophisticated labs are unable to track these reaction in real time, nor do they have much clue how to control the roast to get specific chemicals or chemical ratios.

But at a rouhg level, we do know what's happening: the malty-bready-savory Maillard flavors form from about 300 up, the caramels from about 390F up, and the distillates from about 425. Each of these classes competes with the others for sugars and waters.

Spending a certain amount of time in each roast stage to get a the balance of flavors one wants already determines the relative rates of change at each stage; while the overall ventilation and heat transfer rates determines the average rate of change for the whole roast. That means you have no way of doing anything about it if the rate of change has an independent effect. Your only recourse would be to redesigning the thermal characteristics of the roaster.

But this is Raphael posting, so maybe that's not a problem :D
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Postby JimH on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:46 pm

I don't even pretend to understand chemistry, but a quick look in Wikipedia brought me to chemical kinetics. If I understood correctly, the rate of a chemical reaction is affected by many factors, only one of which is temperature. While the reactions involved in roasting coffee seem incredibly complicated, I would say it seems unlikely that 10,000 joules absorbed in 5 minutes will yield the same chemical reactions that 10,000 joules absorbed in 10 minutes would achieve.

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Postby Whale on Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:46 am

I am not a chemical anything and I am just shooting through my hat but... Far from me to claim to understand the chemical process inside the coffee beans but from what I have read to date, it is much more complicated than any of us could begin to explain.

There is no doubt that rate of rise of the BT has an influence on the chemical reactions and the resulting flavours. I know this by tests and have read such statement from many people. Why and how it works is beyond my complete understanding.

another_jim wrote:Your only recourse would be to redesigning the thermal characteristics of the roaster.


Since my very first attempts at roasting I have been working at modifying my roasters to do just that. In fact, since I am doing this to learn, the ultimate goal is to get a machine that allows the profile to be changed quickly and in any way possible. Trial and errors of sort...
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Postby Arpi on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:03 am

Thanks.

JimH wrote:I don't even pretend to understand chemistry, but a quick look in Wikipedia brought me to chemical kinetics.
Jim


That sounds very interesting. To me, the word 'kinetics' does define coffee roasting and I would say it even goes beyond in to all aspects of coffee. I think we could be looking into one of those things that the smaller it gets, the more complex it can get, or at least, the more it could differ from our mental models and assumptions.

Sometimes, I've done very fast roasts but they have produced different results depending on the bean. Sometimes, the roast was boring. Other times, the roast came out floral. And with aging, it later became fruity. So there are a lot of transitions going on at all times. Roasting at different BT speeds (vertical speed of BT) may emphasize some chemicals transitions while making other smaller, which in turn, could be a catalyst of some type. It is easy to imagine things. But it sure looks interesting.

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Postby sekihk on Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:54 am

Arpi, your question about whether RoR affects constitution of finishing aromatic compounds is definitely "Yes", according to the doctor degree thesis (consisting of 161 pages) written by Dr. Stefan Schenker (he's now the Head of Petroncini) submitted to Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich in 2000. The topic of the thesis is "Investigations on the Hot Air Roasting of Coffee Beans" and I guess you can find it online by google it. There's comprehensive discussion on how the roasting profile could affect the intensity of aromatic chemicals in roasted coffee beans.
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Postby farmroast on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:32 pm

sekihk wrote:Arpi, your question about whether RoR affects constitution of finishing aromatic compounds is definitely "Yes", according to the doctor degree thesis (consisting of 161 pages) written by Dr. Stefan Schenker (he's now the Head of Petroncini) submitted to Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich in 2000....


I have the Schenker article link and a few others related in this post on my blog.
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Postby another_jim on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:58 pm

I'm not a chemical engineer; but I am a mathematician of sorts -- You need to avoid being mathematically overdetermined here. The "average rate of rise" is the overall roast temeperature minus room temperature divided by the roast time. Slower and faster roasts can make a difference, so can darker or lighter roasts, without this being caused as an independent variable by the rate of rise. The rate of rise is entirely determined by these other factors

You could make the roast non-monotonic, sending the temperature up and down, and then the rate changes would be independent of the average roast times or temperatures. But in that case, the cause of any taste changes might be the falling temperatures themselves creating a new cascade of reactions (having the chemicals created at higher temperatures available as feedstocks)

Back in the 80s, I worked my way through Ilya Prigogine's (the so called poet of thermodynamics) book on self organizing chemical reactions. The rate at which any chemical is produced depends on a reaction constant and the density of its precursors (what I called feed stocks here). The reaction constant depends on free energy as well as catalysts. The reactions themselves release or absorb free energy. Free energy is an instantaneous quantity, and therefore not dependent on rates of change. Any reaction system, as a whole, can be written as a coupled set of differential equations with one equation for each chemical's rate of production.

If no reaction is autocatalytic (the presence of chemical A creates more chemical A) or in an autocatalytic cycle (e.g. A makes B; B makes A), the equations are linear, well behaved, and easily solved. If some reactions are auto-catalytic, some of the reaction equations become polynomials; and there are no general closed form solutions. Instead, the system has to be solved piecewise. This is where they can become interestingly periodic over time and patterned over space (self-organizing).

Coffee roasting Maiilard reactions have autocatalytic cycles, but aren't self organizing, since a bean is a closed system and eventually runs out of amino acids, sugars and water (the basic reaction feedstocks). This allows a measure of control -- allocating the raw materials to one phase of the reaction or another. But it laos means that it is possible to get indistinguishable roasts from different roasters using different roast times, since while the rate of rise varies, the reactions rates are all equally slowed or accelerated. For instance, I've had slow HG/DB roast that tasted identical to fast air roasts.

My feeling is that it is the proportion of time spent in each phase of the roast that is more important that the overall time. If I use a 3/3/3 profile (warmup, ramp to first, and roast finish) on my air roaster, and a 4/4/4 on my drum, the results are usually very much the same.

As a completely irrelevant but interesting aside -- Prigogine proved that all episodes of self organization are detectable from the outside as a spike in entropy production -- a garbage explosion. That pretty well describes my episodes of trying to organize my roasting more efficiently. But sadly, while all self organization produces extra garbage, the reverse is not true; an explosion of garbage does not always mean a rise to a higher level of organization.
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Postby endlesscycles on Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:02 am

another_jim wrote:...

But at a rouhg level, we do know what's happening: the malty-bready-savory Maillard flavors form from about 300 up, the caramels from about 390F up, and the distillates from about 425. Each of these classes competes with the others for sugars and waters. ...



I'm confused here. Is chemistry (or terminology) different in coffee, because this is the info I pulled from Harold McGee's book on food.

Maillard Reactions start at 309°F

Caramelization temperatures:
Sugar Temperature
Fructose 230°F
Galactose 320°F
Glucose 320°F
Sucrose 320°F
Maltose 356°F

And I'm not sure how any of this really impacts how I roast, since I have found that your #/#/# brand of profile description, executed as smooth as possible delivers the best cup (informed by countless roast, cup, record, repeat cycles).
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